What do Horns on speaker cabs do?

[KJung]

I like this answer.

+1 on the hiss.

-1 on the reason. For Bass guitar backline, for many tone goals, that 800hz to 2K region is called the 'gank' region, and results in quite a harsh or nasally tone if too present. Most cab manufacturers went to the woofer/tweeter design since that allows the cab designer to create a cab easily optimized for many bass guitar tones (slapping or modern tones... of course there are one way cabs for the vintage guys). There is nothing quite so beautiful to some of us than a full range cab with a high quality tweeter/crossover set just above the upper range of the driver.

One can get into quite a bit of 'tone trouble' blindly applying home audio or front of house PA design goals to bass guitar backline. Same thing with guitar amplification, where players, for the most part, love the 'rough sounding' upper mids breaking up at the top end of the driver.

 

[spidey112669]

Tweeters/horns on combo cabs give you a Great rainy day project when you disconnect them or install a switch on the cab to turn them off!!

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Most cab manufacturers went to the woofer/tweeter design since that allows the cab designer to create a cab easily optimized for many bass guitar tones .

If only....
The first tweeters used in bass cabs were piezos. They were used because they were dirt cheap and didn't need a crossover. There was no concern whatsoever for optimizing anything except profit margins. Eventually manufacturers went away from piezos to dynamic tweeters, but they went cheap then as well, with many opting to use the cheapest suitable tweeter available and a simple high-pass filter. The vast majority of players who've tried cabs with midrange drivers greatly prefer them to tweeters, but they're very rare, simply because they cost more, pure and simple.

 

[LowDownWays]

that 800hz to 2K region is called the 'gank' region, and results in quite a harsh or nasally tone if too present.

So what about cabs like the Berg NV412 and NV610? No tweeters or midrange drivers but spec'd to 4.5K From the rave reviews I've read they have overcome this problem?

 

[KJung]

If only....
The first tweeters used in bass cabs were piezos. They were used because they were dirt cheap and didn't need a crossover. There was no concern whatsoever for optimizing anything except profit margins. Eventually manufacturers went away from piezos to dynamic tweeters, but they went cheap then as well, with many opting to use the cheapest suitable tweeter available and a simple high-pass filter. The vast majority of players who've tried cabs with midrange drivers greatly prefer them to tweeters, but they're very rare, simply because they cost more, pure and simple.

I'll +1 that all the way. Like everything else, there are good executions, and executions that just suck. +1. Unfortunately, many on this site that joke about 'wanting to turn the tweeter off', have played nothing but the Guitar Center disasters and probably haven't heard a well executed design with high quality crossover, high quality horn, and a 'thought out' voicing per my comment above.

Of course, the mid driver cabs sound wonderful also, but quite different (even if you add a tweeter up top). All good stuff, but again, +1 that there are 'dogs of every design' out there. In my experience (quite extensive... I've played about 15 of them at this point) with the two way with mid driver design, this execution is more of a 'better one way cab' than a replacement for a high quality two way cab with a tweeter... they sound like a nice 12 or 15 cab with less beaming and a slightly higher frequency range to my ear... not a bad thing at all!

+1 though, there are very few things that sound worse that a cheap, harsh, poorly executed tweeter/crossover in a two way cab

 

[JimmyM]

I'll +1 that all the way. Like everything else, there are good executions, and executions that just suck. +1. Unfortunately, many on this site that joke about 'wanting to turn the tweeter off', have played nothing but the Guitar Center disasters and probably haven't heard a well executed design with high quality crossover, high quality horn, and a 'thought out' voicing per my comment above.

Of course, the mid driver cabs sound wonderful also, but quite different (even if you add a tweeter up top). All good stuff, but again, +1 that there are 'dogs of every design' out there. In my experience (quite extensive... I've played about 15 of them at this point) with the two way with mid driver design, this execution is more of a 'better one way cab' than a replacement for a high quality two way cab with a tweeter... they sound like a nice 12 or 15 cab with less beaming and a slightly higher frequency range to my ear... not a bad thing at all!

i'd say that's very dependent on where the mid driver stops. i've heard some mid drivers that cut off at like 8 or 9k that you'd swear were full range up to 20k. others might cut off at 5k and not sound so bright.

and you are absolutely right that poor tweeter execution in most bass cabs will turn many of us tweeter haters off, but having heard my bass through a couple cabs with a mid driver, plus the many times i've heard my bass through really nice line array pa's, i've figured that 5k is the absolute highest high freq i can stand in any situation.

 

[KJung]

i'd say that's very dependent on where the mid driver stops. i've heard some mid drivers that cut off at like 8 or 9k that you'd swear were full range up to 20k. others might cut off at 5k and not sound so bright.

and you are absolutely right that poor tweeter execution in most bass cabs will turn many of us tweeter haters off, but having heard my bass through a couple cabs with a mid driver, plus the many times i've heard my bass through really nice line array pa's, i've figured that 5k is the absolute highest high freq i can stand in any situation.

+1, although with all of these that I've heard with various mid drivers, there is a distinctly different nature to the top end versus a horn type tweeter. I don't think there are many mid drivers that go up beyond 6K or so. Now again, some would say that is plenty high for a bass guitar, and I would respond that it depends on the kind of tone you are looking for.

Also, per my comment above, it's not completely about high end extension, but also the type of transition between the top end of the woofer and the low end of the driver. To use a cliched example, that beautiful (to me) top end that player like Marcus Miller achieves in his tone is partually due IMO and IME to having a bit of space between the top end of a driver and the start of the tweeter, allowing that upper treble to not be masked by the lower treble that cranks through those mid drivers (that's why these players seem to gravitate toward the EBS/SWR side of the gear continuum IMO, where there is a big old hole in the upper mids by design).

Different strokes for different folks, and it all sounds good in its own way. I again think the 15/6 type cabs will be a revelation to those who are using old school one way cabs (again, similar but 'better' tone and dispersion).

 

[Krügmeister]

Males cabs use their horns to engage each other in stylized head butting combat by which mating privileges are determined. Female cabs use them to put on tight shoes and then engage each other in similar rituals but with the primary movements occurring at the other end of the animal.

THIS!

 

[JimmyM]

Also, per my comment above, it's not completely about high end extension, but also the type of transition between the top end of the woofer and the low end of the driver. To use a cliched example, that beautiful (to me) top end that player like Marcus Miller achieves in his tone is partually due IMO and IME to having a bit of space between the top end of a driver and the start of the tweeter, allowing that upper treble to not be masked by the lower treble that cranks through those mid drivers (that's why these players seem to gravitate toward the EBS/SWR side of the gear continuum IMO, where there is a big old hole in the upper mids by design).

agreed, although even my being a huge fan of marcus' playing can't make up for me hating his sound but it's his sound and it serves him well and you always know it's him by his sound, so what do i know?

Different strokes for different folks, and it all sounds good in its own way. I again think the 15/6 type cabs will be a revelation to those who are using old school one way cabs (again, similar but 'better' tone and dispersion).

right on. i didn't really appreciate it until i used one with the band, but wow, those types of cabs really shine in the live environment. if anything could get me away from my 810 and b-15 cabs, it'll be that.

 

[KJung]

agreed, although even my being a huge fan of marcus' playing can't make up for me hating his sound but it's his sound and it serves him well and you always know it's him by his sound, so what do i know?


right on. i didn't really appreciate it until i used one with the band, but wow, those types of cabs really shine in the live environment. if anything could get me away from my 810 and b-15 cabs, it'll be that.

+1 Different strokes for different folks. I can sure appreciate a 'fridge' also, but would kill myself if I had to play out of one. Pure personal taste and tone goals.

Where things get into trouble is some saying 'this is the way a cab should be designed for everyone'. That leads nowhere IMO.

 

[jnewmark]

+1 Different strokes for different folks. I can sure appreciate a 'fridge' also, but would kill myself if I had to play out of one. Pure personal taste and tone goals.

Where things get into trouble is some saying 'this is the way a cab should be designed for everyone'. That leads nowhere IMO.

+1. I have the most mismatched combo ever, a Roland db700 with a JBL E 140, cheap horn that sounds wonderful, especially the horn! Always sounds just right when popping that G string, and nice and chunky, sparkly bottom. Probably does'nt make sense on paper, but it really gets it on low volume gigs, and, surprisingly, outdoor in a tent gigs.

 

[David Jayne]

They hiss.

Tweeters don't hiss. Amps do, and a tweeter will reveal it.

I know, Bill. I was kidding. Hence, the ......

 

[billfitzmaurice]

No tweeters or midrange drivers but spec'd to 4.5K

4.5kHz on axis, maybe. The problem lies in off-axis response. No woofer has useful off-axis response above 2.5kHz, and that's best case. Frequencies that no one can hear if they aren't directly in front of the cab don't count.

 

[lunarpollen]

It's funny, I was thinking about this very subject while in the bath this morning. I've started turning off my tweeter. The speakers of the amps that the guitarists I play with use don't have tweeters, and I feel that there's no reason why I should have higher frequencies in my sound than they do. I can get plenty of natural sounding highs even from my 1x15, especially with my VT Bass pedal. I suppose if I was playing bass as a lead instrument in some kind of music where every crisp pristine detail of every nuance and overtone needed to be heard, I'd turn the tweeter back up.

On a different note, thinking about this while in the bath this morning made me realize that while most effects pedals I use are designed to enhances the sound of the instrument in some way, the VT Bass pedal enhances the sound of the amplifier. Tweeters aren't really important to me now when considering bass cabs, except that I want the option of turning them off!

 

[KJung]

It's funny, I was thinking about this very subject while in the bath this morning. I've started turning off my tweeter. The speakers of the amps that the guitarists I play with use don't have tweeters, and I feel that there's no reason why I should have higher frequencies in my sound than they do. I can get plenty of natural sounding highs even from my 1x15, especially with my VT Bass pedal. I suppose if I was playing bass as a lead instrument in some kind of music where every crisp pristine detail of every nuance and overtone needed to be heard, I'd turn the tweeter back up.

On a different note, thinking about this while in the bath this morning made me realize that while most effects pedals I use are designed to enhances the sound of the instrument in some way, the VT Bass pedal enhances the sound of the amplifier. Tweeters aren't really important to me now when considering bass cabs, except that I want the option of turning them off!

This is perfectly logical, if you want a similar grindy upper mid response like a guitarist does, and especially if you are dialing in 'old school' warmth and distortion with a lot of effects.

For many of us, we enjoy a more full range tone, with a clean top end (versus the upper mid and treble break-up that guitarists like). Also, given that we have to go way lower than guitarists, but definition, bass drivers don't extend way up top, and the off axis response above the upper mids is almost non-existent, especially if you are using 15's.

Remember, tweeters have nothing to do with 'going high', but rather allow you to use a driver that extends farther down low, and at the same time, allows you to hear the 'clean' windings of your strings, even on the E string (and B string).

Lot's of different ways to get a great sound on a bass, and your approach of effects and a one way cab are definitely one of those ways! If I enjoyed a 'one way with no tweeter' tone, I would definitely be playing one of the 15/6's with mid driver... the best of both worlds... smooth 'tweeterless' top end, but great midrange dispersion, and the ability to use a driver that really goes low for a big low end!

 

[billfitzmaurice]

The speakers of the amps that the guitarists I play with use don't have tweeters

That's because distortion sounds bad through tweeters, and worse, distortion will blow them. Guitar drivers go higher than bass drivers, in many cases they go about as high as midrange drivers. But because of their large size their dispersion at high frequencies is horrid. Compound that with putting them side by side, which reduces dispersion even more, and the source of the legendary 'beaming' of 4x12 cabs is obvious, at least to those who understand how speakers work. It's apparently not so obvious to guitar players who use them, though.
Where fifteens are concerned many have perfectly good on-axis response to 2kHz and more, and that's plenty high enough for many. But their dispersion narrows above roughly 1kHz, so that leaves an octave or more that isn't heard by most of the audience. Adding an eight or six to handle above 1kHz, giving two to three times the dispersion of a fifteen, fixes it.

 

[lunarpollen]

This thread has been very educational!! I understand now how the presence of a tweeter allows a big speaker to be free to handle deeper lows.

I used to run a 2x10 in conjunction with my 1x15 but way too much of the sound was going through the 2x10, it made the 1x15 sound really quiet and weak. Using the 1x15 alone made for a much fuller tone. But I guess now I have the problem of my highs only being beamed in a narrow line. Maybe for gigs, I'll make sure to point my cab toward the center of the audience, and turn up the tweeter just a bit to help with that. But for practicing at home and recording, I'll keep it off.

 

[greenboy]

From the fEarful WIKI, Link Removed.

Typically for better beamwidth one wants to cross over LOWER than the beaming limit, but it's always a compromise between getting the best pattern matching and practical limitations of driver choice and number.

As Bill points out puttting two drivers that cover the same range next to each other horizontally collapses the useful dispersion by roughly 50%. One can look at EV's old TL-606 plans from way back when and see that placing two drivers side by side has a large impact on beamwidth even at 800 Hz.

 

[BassmanPaul]

and you are absolutely right that poor tweeter execution in most bass cabs will turn many of us tweeter haters off.

That's right Jimmy, we all should execute our tweeters properly!

I favour hanging, drawing and quartering followed by the burning of entrails! Mind you burning at the stake has a lot going for it too!

Paul

 

[will33]

I understand now how the presence of a tweeter allows a big speaker to be free to handle deeper lows.

Only if there's a true crossover being used, in most commonly available bass cabs there isn't. The woofers are sent a full range signal and let play up as high as they'll go. The highpass filter, which is kinda 1/2 a crossover only keeps the lows out of the tweeter to keep it from blowing up.

+1 to pointing your rig at center audience, that's understanding the dispersion thing whenever your rig is carrying the room. If your whole band is run through a PA system, then the audience should be hearing that instead of your rig. In that case, you may want to set your rig side-stage and point it across the band so you all can hear you better.