What do you consider alcoholism to be ?

[ImaStupidBaby]

In re ImaStupidBaby and TallLankyBastyd:

Both of you are making the assumption that addiction is equivalent to disease. Basshole and others are arguing that chemical dependence (addiction) is not the same as having a disease. Therefore, when you argue that alchoholism is a disease because it is an addiction, you are making an argument based on a false assumption.

Maybe the real question should be:

Do you believe that addictions are diseases?

No, what I am saying is that alcoholism is a form of addiction, like an opiate addiction. There are physiological changes that result from addictions. It is those physiological changes that I would say are the disease. So yes, I would say that addictions are diseases.

 

[Bryan316]

The physiological changes are NOT a disease. Any biology student could show you. Physiological changes are no different than warts growing in you, or your hair going grey, or your farts stinking worse on certain days.

It is the psychological effects that could maaaaaaaybe be classified as syndromes, at best. But they're not.

An addiction is an addiction. Not a disease.

 

[WalterBush]

In re ImaStupidBaby and TallLankyBastyd:

Both of you are making the assumption that addiction is equivalent to disease. Basshole and others are arguing that chemical dependence (addiction) is not the same as having a disease. Therefore, when you argue that alchoholism is a disease because it is an addiction, you are making an argument based on a false assumption.

Maybe the real question should be:

Do you believe that addictions are diseases?

An important point. Those claiming that alcoholism is the same as any other substance abuse problem don't know what they're talking about. Most addictions involve an actually addictive substance. Alcohol, in and of itself, is not addictive. If you're not genetically predisposed towards alcoholism, you couldn't become an alcoholic if you tried. The addictive part comes in the form of an allergy on the part of the potential alcoholic. The potential alcoholic doesn't experience alcohol the same way that a non-alcoholic does.

Where the problem comes in, is that an alcoholic doesn't realize they're an alcoholic until they're firmly in its grip. At that point, it can be treated like a disease, but it isn't curable. They didn't choose to be an alcoholic; they chose to get drunk. See the difference?

Nicotine is addictice. Opiates are addictive. Cocaine is addictive. Everyone taking these drugs, over a period of time, will become addicts. Not everyone who drinks over extended periods of time becomes an alcoholic. It's not the same choice, and it's not the same as any other addiction on the planet.

 

[Brendan]

Alcoholism is the only disease you can get yelled at for having.

 

[Basshole]

There seems to be a lot on ignorance and misinformation in this thread (I may be even responsible for some of it). Let's not forget to mention that Cannabis (as was mentioned in this thread) DOES NOT have a physical addiction component - perhaps dependancy, but NOT chemical.

I never meant to minimize or belittle the ravages of Alcohol addiction - quite the opposite, I only sought to make a distinction between predisposition to an addiction, and an actual DISEASE.

If a disease is treatable, that clearly does not make it cease to be a disease (nor did I ever insinuate such)...so the iron blood disease mentioned here is IMHO in the same category as my disease. You can treat, and modify the affects of a disease with drugs...but no behavioral modification will simply make it go away, as is the case with alcohol.

THAT is the distinction, as I see it. CHOICE. In my mind, a disease is something that happens TO YOU, not something you actively have a major role in bringing on yourlsef with a behavior that you CAN choose to cease (although I do not in any way suggest it's an EASY choice).

 

[Vince S.]

I wouldn't characterize it as a "disease" as it has become so fashionable to do of late. I think that is an insult to those who have a REAL disease. You can merely exercise willpower to overcome the mental, and even physical addiction of Alcohol - it amounts to simply NOT PUTTING ALCOHOL IN YOUR MOUTH.

This couldn't be further from the truth. Alcoholics can die if they just quit cold turkey. Google delirium tremens. It's an acute condition alcoholics face if they suddenly stop drinking; they get tremors, rapid heart rate, increased blood pressure, and can eventually slip into seizures/coma and die if it is left untreated. It is a true medical emergency that requires immediate treatment in the ER.

 

[Basshole]

Where the problem comes in, is that an alcoholic doesn't realize they're an alcoholic until they're firmly in its grip. At that point, it can be treated like a disease, but it isn't curable. They didn't choose to be an alcoholic; they chose to get drunk. See the difference?

If you choose to use a drug who's many consequences include possible addiction, if you are so pre-disposed, then it is a risk you consciously take.

I took no risk, I did nothing to get sick, and there is no behavior I can modify or choose not to do to remedy the situation. THAT is the distinction.

 

[ImaStupidBaby]

An important point. Those claiming that alcoholism is the same as any other substance abuse problem don't know what they're talking about. Most addictions involve an actually addictive substance. Alcohol, in and of itself, is not addictive. If you're not genetically predisposed towards alcoholism, you couldn't become an alcoholic if you tried. The addictive part comes in the form of an allergy on the part of the potential alcoholic. The potential alcoholic doesn't experience alcohol the same way that a non-alcoholic does.

Where the problem comes in, is that an alcoholic doesn't realize they're an alcoholic until they're firmly in its grip. At that point, it can be treated like a disease, but it isn't curable. They didn't choose to be an alcoholic; they chose to get drunk. See the difference?

Nicotine is addictice. Opiates are addictive. Cocaine is addictive. Everyone taking these drugs, over a period of time, will become addicts. Not everyone who drinks over extended periods of time becomes an alcoholic. It's not the same choice, and it's not the same as any other addiction on the planet.

I would disagree with you to an extent. As someone who grew up with alcoholic parents and who has dealt with opiate addiction himself, I would say that I do, in fact, know what I'm talking about. I will though, say that for someone who has the genetic predisposition for alcoholism, their addiction to alcohol is very, very similar to the point of being nearly indistinguishable to my addiction to opiates.

But you're right in that alcohol is not inherently addictive. My argument did incorrectly assume that we were referring to people with a genetic disposition.

 

[Basshole]

This couldn't be further from the truth. Alcoholics can die if they just quit cold turkey. Google delirium tremens. It's an acute condition alcoholics face if they suddenly stop drinking; they get tremors, rapid heart rate, increased blood pressure, and can eventually slip into seizures/coma and die if it is left untreated. It is a true medical emergency that requires immediate treatment in the ER.

BFD. So it's a CONDITION that requires CAREFUL TREATMENT. That STILL doesn't make it a disease.

 

[Jeremy Crockett]

A character flaw.

 

[Joey3313]

Definition of disease:
a disordered or incorrectly functioning organ, part, structure, or system of the body resulting from the effect of genetic or developmental errors, infection, poisons, nutritional deficiency or imbalance, toxicity, or unfavorable environmental factors; illness; sickness; ailment.

Poisons. BAM! Disease. Affecting an organ. Liver. BAM!


txbasschik, your definition is flawed due to the fact that functioning alcoholics exist. They hold jobs, can be sucessful, no real issues aside from a chemical depedency to alchohol. Though this is rare, it still happens.

My entire family is alchoholics, essentially. Father, mother, grandparents, everyone. With that in mind, I am going to have a difference of opinion than someone who either:
1) Doesn't have any direct contact with alcoholics, or
2) Doesn't have...an unbreakable relation. It's not like you're dating a drunk, whereas you can just ditch them and never deal, they are my family, which I kinda can't get rid of.
I've seen my father attempt to quit cold turkey...not pretty. The shaking of the hands was hard to see, the mood swings weren't fun either, but when he had a seizure in my basement...that was the worst.

The point is, just "taking the bottle away from your lips" isn't exactly enough. Just quitting isn't an option after a certain point.
Alcholism does not begin as a disease. It is a habit, which evolves into a chemical depedecy, and eventually a disease, IMO. Once it reaches the second stage, it falls under Basshole's own classification of them having "ZERO choice in the matter." Actual treatment from medical professionals is key in sucessfully recovering, much like other diseases.

And I was actually waiting for a Mitch Hedberg reference in this thread.

 

[Basshole]

A character flaw.

Now THAT'S belittling of Alcoholism, IMHO. I wouldn't be so cavalier as to say something like that. It is a condition...very real, very serious. It's a genetic predisposition...but it is NOT a disease, IMHO.

 

[ImaStupidBaby]

BFD. So it's a CONDITION that requires CAREFUL TREATMENT. That STILL doesn't make it a disease.

I think this is essentially a semantics argument now. A the definition of "disease" is rather nebulous. But I will say that alcoholism is widely accepted in the medical community as a disease.

 

[disenchant]

I still maintain that the actual disease is depression or anxiety and alcoholism or other addictions are symptoms. I've never heard of an alcoholic that didn't drink for a reason--usually to numb themselves. Self-medicating. They have pain somewhere and alcohol takes it away. But alcohol is not the CAUSE of the pain, the pain originates from somewhere else. So alcoholism is a RESULT of something else, not the cause. Which explains why they can't stop. I doubt it's a character flaw--if you were in pain constantly, wouldn't you do anything you could to stop it? That's natural human instinct. If you could cure the reason the person drank, you can be assured they would not drink anymore.

Same with eating. People get fat for a reason sometimes a physical, medical reason like thyroid problems, and often an emotional one. Anorexia--same thing. The cause is a psychological problem. Fix the cause, you fix the symptom.

 

[Basshole]

I think this is essentially a semantics argument now. A the definition of "disease" is rather nebulous.

+1 This is true.

Personally, I think that while the dictionary is of little help in settling this one, the personal choice issue (regardless of the fact that at some point, with time, this choice becomes less of a factor w/alcohol) is what still solidifies the distinction between CONDITION and DISEASE in MY lexicon.

 

[disenchant]

+1 This is true.

Personally, I think that while the dictionary is of little help in settling this one, the personal choice issue (regardless of the fact that at some point, with time, this choice becomes less of a factor w/alcohol) is what still solidifies the distinction between CONDITION and DISEASE in MY lexicon.

I think it's kind of like tumors. You don't say "I have the disease of tumors," you have tumors as a symptom of cancer or some other disease.

"it's not a tuuuumor"

 

[Basshole]

I think this is essentially a semantics argument now. A the definition of "disease" is rather nebulous. But I will say that alcoholism is widely accepted in the medical community as a disease.

The "medical community" also characterized ulcers as an "auto immune disease" or a "stress related illness" steadfastly refusing to believe a doctor who had discovered that it was in fact caused in most cases by the H. Pylori bacteria, until the evidence was so overwhelming that they had to stop stonewalling.

What the "medical community" believes in the USA is so full of crap, it's positively mind-numbing. Between the corruption of the FDA and the AMA, and the influence brought to bear by drug companies, their credibility is NIL, IMHO.

Classifying it as a disease probably just helps to market drugs to alcoholics, and have insurance pay the tab.

 

[Diggler]

After reading all this, I need a drink.

 

[soulgeezer]

Point of order:

Many posters have stated that people have genetic predisposition to alcoholism as if it is a stone cold fact. Is this the case? Are there studies supporting this position?

The mere fact that something runs in families is not sufficient evidence of genetic predisposition. It is just as likely that such behaviors are learned from the environment as encoded in one's genes.

We have many people in family named "John." Does that mean my family is genetically predisposed to the name "John"?

 

[Bad Brains]

If I could do something as simple as take the fricken bottle out of my mouth, and walk without excruciating pain again, or play without pain again, then I would. The fact is, they have a choice, and I do not. To characterize it as a disease is an insult to those of us who don't have this option.

It's not as easy as simply "taking the bottle out of your mouth". Have you ever been addicted to anything before?

When people say alcoholism is a "disease", they don't mean it as a disease like something caused by a virus or an immune system deficiency. It's a mental illness, just like depression. And for people who suffer from depresseion, it's not as simple as "just being happy".