Double Bass What do you expect from your (Jazz) Drummer?

[JazzDrummer]

As a drummer not too much I can contribute and I joined the Forum to post on a thread about George Duvivier. But how about this one:
What's important for me about (double)bass players is time & presence, tone and intonation. The time is most important for it determines whether a job is pure joy or hard work.
What determines the tone is a bit of a miracle to me because it cannot be the instrument(?). My favorite bass player had two good instuments, one was wrecked by a singer tripping over it, the other by a drunk friend who fell down the stairs where the bass was stored at the bottom. So now he plays a Chinese $ 1.000,- double bass with some good strings and he sounds fantastic... . So good time and tone really makes me happy.

So what is important for you about the drummer you play with?

 

[jallenbass]

Couple of things:

If your going to get fancy please be sure that you know where one is.

Understand what parts of the drum kit occupy the same sonic space as the instruments that you are playing with. A ride cymbal can, if played improperly, completely mask the bass or guitar players tone.

Know the form of the tune.


Thanks for your input of what's important with regard to the bass player's playing.

 

[Dudie]

Interesting question!
Know the form and melody. Keep time and dont "overplay". Ive played with drummers that, what it seems, has a goal to trick the band with bending the time and playing as difficult as possible. In my book everybody in the band must play together and make the whole band sound as good as possible.

 

[John Wiitala]

Know where you are in the forum--very important!

 

[Francois Blais]

Moved...

 

[JazzDrummer]

Moved...

My apology for posting in the wrong place, shall try to better myself.

 

[JazzDrummer]

Couple of things:

If your going to get fancy please be sure that you know where one is.

Understand what parts of the drum kit occupy the same sonic space as the instruments that you are playing with. A ride cymbal can, if played improperly, completely mask the bass or guitar players tone.

Know the form of the tune.


Thanks for your input of what's important with regard to the bass player's playing.

Thanks, I was hoping for something like that ! If we are talking Mainstream Jazz IMO the drummer's job is to keep time and make the band sound right, support solo players, listen to what they are doing, go along with that and swing your rear end off. I like soft fills with the left hand or "drop bombs" modestly, but the ting-ting-ta-ting never stops. I don't think drummers should get fancy unless in their own solo. I always have seen myself as an accompanist of musicians and to play fours here and there - and even then listening to what I am playing "against". That is really what I enjoy the most. Like the late John Lewis put it, most important is the sound of the band. Only recently (I play for over 35 years!) I started to practice solos because people keep asking for them.

Interesting point on the sonic space: We are "only" talking about drums, but it is very valid. If I accompany bass solos, that will be with brushes or some high pitch sound on hihat or a small 4" cymbal that sounds like a triangle. Other than that I follow the format of the tune, change in the bridge from brushes to sticks or from one cymbal to another. With a small jazz set and mostly 2, sometimes 3 cymbals I don't have that many choices. But I never get into anyones way, because I play fairly soft which also provides a lot of room for dynamic playing.

 

[Rockman]

I feel like a lot of the times the different components of the drum set aren't really played with different attacks, making the cymbals sound just not right. I've played with a few drummers who really are able to get such a clear sound out of the cymbal, then someone else would come on the kit and it would sound so much more ambiguous. The same thing goes for making hi-hat sound very crisp, lots of times it isn't. And the number one thing that many drummers do that I love when they don't is feather all 4 beats of the measure.

I feel like time is a given, I absolutely abhor playing with a drummer with bad time. I just don't see how you speed up while getting louder, it seems to me it should be the other way aroudn.

 

[JazzDrummer]

I feel like a lot of the times the different components of the drum set aren't really played with different attacks, making the cymbals sound just not right. I've played with a few drummers who really are able to get such a clear sound out of the cymbal, then someone else would come on the kit and it would sound so much more ambiguous. The same thing goes for making hi-hat sound very crisp, lots of times it isn't. And the number one thing that many drummers do that I love when they don't is feather all 4 beats of the measure.

The ting-ting-ta-ting cymbal sound can vary tremendeously depending on how you play. Many drummers just "drop" the stick and use rebound. May be at fast tempos you can get away with it, otherwise to my ears it ruins the whole sound of the cymbal, totally undefined and uncontrolled. I was fortunate enough that my first teacher taught me right. You can play dotted 8th or "think" triplets. I favor triplets, swings more IMO. Then you start slow, make every beat exact with no rebound, accent on all 4 beats. As you become faster, rebound is a necessity, but it comes out very controlled. And thanks to practicing slow with the accent, it comes out with a "bite", at any tempo. Makes a huge difference in the sound. Same rules apply to the drums.

Feathering: Connie Kay was a master of that, but feathering as the name suggests, is very light playing with a soft bass drum beater. I don't do it, too tiring haha! My "time" is in the hihat, don't need it anyway. But it can do something else if there is no bass player; the other day I saw a Trad. Jazz band, I heard the bass but I could not see him. During the break I asked what that miracle was and I learnt that they tricked my mind: When the piano player (keyboard actually) could do with one hand, his left hand played the bass lines. When he needed both hands, the drummer would play all 4 beats on the bass drum (that's a little more than feathering) but I still thought I heard the bass lines. That really threw me off, could not believe it.

 

[JazzDrummer]

I feel like time is a given, I absolutely abhor playing with a drummer with bad time. I just don't see how you speed up while getting louder, it seems to me it should be the other way aroudn.

I guess that is a technical weakness, you try to play more than you can, it becomes apparent that you can't do it and you loose everything right there, including the time. Whenever your are too close to the edge of your technical abilities, you are at risk to distort the time.

 

[ole Jason]

Interesting question!
Know the form and melody. Keep time and dont "overplay". Ive played with drummers that, what it seems, has a goal to trick the band with bending the time and playing as difficult as possible. In my book everybody in the band must play together and make the whole band sound as good as possible.

I don't mind busy drummers or drummer who take charge of beat placement but I know exactly what you mean with bending the time and tricking the band. That stuff is fine in the context of a group but if I'm sitting in that's the last thing I want to hear.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

What do I expect? A willingness to lend money and bad short term memory....

 

[SteveC]

Know the form.
Don't over play - but don't be afraid to play when appropriate.
Dynamics.
When appropriate you need to take charge and "drive the bus" so to speak.
Listen.

 

[Roger Davis]

Thanks for you thoughtful contributions, JD. You are asking for advice but seem to have it all well covered already. My advice? Use your ears generously and your kick drum sparingly. (actually I like to use the old term bass drum, but each to his own). I seem to do quite a few gigs without a drummer (economics) so it's a great treat to play with a good one.

In your shopping list for an ideal bassist you rightly mentioned good time keeping. Have you considered this in a bit more detail? For instance, and through osmosis, I tend to play just a bit in front of the beat. Most drummers are very complimentary on this point but there is one drummer who I regularly play with - who thinks he is God - who is always complaining. What do you think?

 

[Sam Sherry]

What do I expect? A willingness to lend money and bad short term memory....

What do I expect? Drums, cymbals, sticks, a stool, and time which declines in proportion to the square of alcohol consumed.

What I prefer is another matter entirely. I've had many great gigs with players who brought less gear than that but brought more musically.

What I prefer is a musician who plays drums. Musicians bring stuff like:
. Dynamics
. Different levels of emotional intensity, all available at any dynamic level
. A variety of musical timbres and colors
. Musical ideas
. A disinclination to get stuck in patterns
. Ears, above all

If they're nicer than me that helps too.

 

[SVT4001]

What do I expect?

I expect someone who LISTENS above all- but I expect that of EVERYONE on the bandstand- and I appreciate it from the audience too!

Beyond that- have something to say-add to the collective sound and serve the song.

One of the most profound musical statements I've ever heard came from a drummer I play with regularly. The group was trading fours, and this cat elected to offer SILENCE during one of his breaks. Amazing!!! One of the guys asked him "what was up with that?" afterwards- to which he replied:

"There's always room for NOTHING."

Genius...absolute genius.


Joe

 

[Roger Davis]

Yes, there are drummers around who are quite perceptive. I was on a gig with a new (to me) drummer and remarked that I always knew when the rhythm was swinging nicely if I could cruise along at two in the bar. Yes, he replied thoughtfully, but a minim is a long note to get wrong.

 

[Slagzeug]

I am a jazz drummer and upright bass player and I notice myself paying attention to different things when I do both gigs.

as a drummer:
I don't have to play about the complex harmonies that are going on so that gives me a little more presence of mind to help keep track of the form

I find myself being in charge more of the dynamics as a drummer. if i crescendo and am all of the sudden louder than everyone else they will come up and vice versa.

as a bassist:
Making sure the harmony and the groove are easily identifiable.

i find I have more control over what to do when things go haywire in the form or if someone gets lost. i can play the root at the top of the head where as a drummer I can only do a loud crash and then yell and throw sticks!

As BOTH:

I notice that my concept of time and what I need to do to keep the groove together changes more based on the different musicians I play with both drummers and bass players and less about what im playing. i play with cats that rush so i need to adjust accordingly or it's off to the races. and vice versa I tend to push when I do Reggae projects and country cause I'm so used to forward motion.

Ears+Heart and a willingness to admit you may not be right all the time = good in my book

 

[DougD]

Couple of things:

If your going to get fancy please be sure that you know where one is.

Understand what parts of the drum kit occupy the same sonic space as the instruments that you are playing with. A ride cymbal can, if played improperly, completely mask the bass or guitar players tone.

Know the form of the tune.


Thanks for your input of what's important with regard to the bass player's playing.

+1
That's good advice for a drummer in any type of music.

 

[TroyK]

Know where you are in the forum--very important!

Good advice for anyone on Talkbass!

Also, know the form, you're not just keeping time, you've got to be playing the song with the rest of us.

Pay attention to dynamics. This doesn't mean "play quietly" it's means play appropriately for the music/band/room. How you play is a product of all of those things and you've got to read or ask the other musicians to make the right choices. Then you have to have the skills to play that way.

Pet peave - Us bassists have trouble amplyfing our instrument. Even a bass that projects well doesn't necessarily carry cleanly and clearly to the ear of the guy playing it on stage. Think about when you're listening to jazz in your car and you get to the bass solo and sometimes you wonder if the song stopped (unless you stereo is better than mine). This quiet-time is called a "bass solo", it's not an opportunity time to show all your tricks off and most likely if you do, you'll either bury the bass solo or drag the soloist to someplace other than what they were hearing before you went through your Brian Blade repretoire. Best way I know of to alianate yourself from your bassist on stage. I've gotten 1/2 way through a set where this was happening and either started waiving off my solos or just abandoning them in the middle and looking at the drummer like "you want this one so bad, take it. I'm not going to fight you for space." But, I either follow that up with a conversation in the break to try to resolve it or avoid working with that drummer again or both. Some guys may feel differently and some nights I may feel differently. Look, listen, make music with people and you'll know.

What I expect from any musicians I work with: be on time, wear what you're supposed to wear, check your email/cell phone so that it's not hard to reach you if I'm trying to staff a gig. It's okay if you're busy, just don't be unresponsive, because I need to know if I should call the next guy on my list. Someone who is administratively difficult for me to coordinate with trickles down my call list in favor of people who I can trade a txt with (or whatever) and know that they're in or out and I can count on them. Be professional on the gig, because I'd like to get asked back with or without you. If it's not your scene, fine, you can say "no" next time, but don't blow it for the rest of us, because we might want or need that job worse that you do.

And, I'd rather you didn't take up 2/3 of the stage with a 9 piece drum set. You don't need that for jazz, even if you want it and we never have that much space.

And, for me, let's make sure we have some overlap in our record collections. I'd like to know that we're drawing from some common referrences. A rock/funk/fusion/whatever drummer who says "but, I can play jazz too" thinks its about chops. You can't play what you don't hear and you can't hear unless you listen. Represent yourself honestly.

I used to have trouble finding drummers, but I've been blessed the last few years. I've got a medium sized list of guys who are great to play with for all the reasons above and more.

It should go without saying that other guys will have other preferences.These are just mine and if you check my profile carefully, you'll see that I am no one of consequence.

Great question! I hope some of the answers you get are helpful. Here's one for you: What's important to you about jazz bassists?

EDIT: Reading your posts, it sounds like you're one of the good guys. But, the fact that you asked that question pretty much told me that you would be.