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what do you think of my Prototype ?
- Thread starter Lemon
- Start date
Well, if you won't tell us what driver you're using, then we don't like your cabinets at all... You see, we armchair cabinet designers live for the opportunity to second guess your design philosophy!
<jk>
<jk>
thats to much english sorry ....
as I said you cant get it. its not on the market, it might come out some day
If you can read the graphs I posted it should be clear that it is a very good speaker chassis, and if you can really read that you should ebven know how that will aproxinmately sound.
Since you not seem to be able to read it, it wont help you if I tell you the more than the specs I explained to be important.
exactly those Specs wich I explained you should ask the Maker of the cab in order to get a Idea what you can expect from that Cab.
if you play Six string this is VERY !!! important.
other wise you will get some unplesant surprises if you play on a stage with a loud band.
and I guess you dont want that right ?
How ever, this post was mostly intendet as info if you
go buy a Cab and what you should look for, in order not to get a cheap bad designed speaker in it.
Unfortunately thats the case in many cases.
I probably wrote it to technical, but if people would try to get a Idea what a speaker is supposed to to and what a speaker is able to do, there$
wold be a lot less people buying something finding out later that it doesent work.
The frequency plot I posted shows pretty much what you can expect from a 12", no matter what they tell you. and it might be a good idea to be more critical against products and ask questions like that in order to get better quality and true informations on products. in lots of cases those companys are just not telling the truth or only pieces of information wich doesent give you the whole picture.
right ???
you cal also Include amp makers there is so much technical crap on the market and it is sold as the NEW BREAK THROUGH IN TECHNOLOGY, but actually there is a 15$ Class D chip plus a 20$ switsching powersupply in it wich sounds awful. and you pay 1000 or more bucks for that.
same with the NEO speakers sounds like **** and is way more expensive
and ever poisonous to produce.
Well what ever if you want to swim down the stream and let them rip you off .......
I got my good quality true specs and great sounding Cabs.
I might would have told you what speakers is in there, but as I can see you re just one of those I would never give it to....
good luck.
and if people dont apprechiate some real and true Information, accumulated over many years of serious experience, wich I learned, just because I was very interested in that subject.
I have no busines and I dont intend to open one.
So I might as well can delete this post again and let you buy nicely packed thrash?
as I said you cant get it. its not on the market, it might come out some day
If you can read the graphs I posted it should be clear that it is a very good speaker chassis, and if you can really read that you should ebven know how that will aproxinmately sound.
Since you not seem to be able to read it, it wont help you if I tell you the more than the specs I explained to be important.
exactly those Specs wich I explained you should ask the Maker of the cab in order to get a Idea what you can expect from that Cab.
if you play Six string this is VERY !!! important.
other wise you will get some unplesant surprises if you play on a stage with a loud band.
and I guess you dont want that right ?
How ever, this post was mostly intendet as info if you
go buy a Cab and what you should look for, in order not to get a cheap bad designed speaker in it.
Unfortunately thats the case in many cases.
I probably wrote it to technical, but if people would try to get a Idea what a speaker is supposed to to and what a speaker is able to do, there$
wold be a lot less people buying something finding out later that it doesent work.
The frequency plot I posted shows pretty much what you can expect from a 12", no matter what they tell you. and it might be a good idea to be more critical against products and ask questions like that in order to get better quality and true informations on products. in lots of cases those companys are just not telling the truth or only pieces of information wich doesent give you the whole picture.
right ???
you cal also Include amp makers there is so much technical crap on the market and it is sold as the NEW BREAK THROUGH IN TECHNOLOGY, but actually there is a 15$ Class D chip plus a 20$ switsching powersupply in it wich sounds awful. and you pay 1000 or more bucks for that.
same with the NEO speakers sounds like **** and is way more expensive
and ever poisonous to produce.
Well what ever if you want to swim down the stream and let them rip you off .......
I got my good quality true specs and great sounding Cabs.
I might would have told you what speakers is in there, but as I can see you re just one of those I would never give it to....
good luck.
and if people dont apprechiate some real and true Information, accumulated over many years of serious experience, wich I learned, just because I was very interested in that subject.
I have no busines and I dont intend to open one.
So I might as well can delete this post again and let you buy nicely packed thrash?
Hallo Lemon
herzlichen Glückwunsch, die Boxen sind klasse geworden ! bin ganz neidisch...
I really appreciate that dont want to divulge your custom speaker specs.
Unfortunately the graphs are a bit small, so I cant really see any detail on there. I've been keen on building my own custom cab, but unfortunately I am stuck with standard drivers and not quite sure, what design parameters make for a great driver for bass cabs.
Based on your experience, what T/S parameters are really important to a bass cab?
Sure, xmax, there more, the better. (Conventional wisdom, however some say a short throw driver makes for a cleaner and punchier sound)
A Qts of around 0,3 - 0,4 to get good bass response in a ported design.
What about the BL factor ? I've noticed that a lot of drivers in commercial cabs have low BLs - wouldnt it be better to have a high BL for a nice punchy low frequency response?
What else can you tell me to look out for when evaluating which speaker to choose ?
Hope to be able to learn something from your experience - please keep us posted on your new projects !
herzlichen Glückwunsch, die Boxen sind klasse geworden ! bin ganz neidisch...
I really appreciate that dont want to divulge your custom speaker specs.
Unfortunately the graphs are a bit small, so I cant really see any detail on there. I've been keen on building my own custom cab, but unfortunately I am stuck with standard drivers and not quite sure, what design parameters make for a great driver for bass cabs.
Based on your experience, what T/S parameters are really important to a bass cab?
Sure, xmax, there more, the better. (Conventional wisdom, however some say a short throw driver makes for a cleaner and punchier sound)
A Qts of around 0,3 - 0,4 to get good bass response in a ported design.
What about the BL factor ? I've noticed that a lot of drivers in commercial cabs have low BLs - wouldnt it be better to have a high BL for a nice punchy low frequency response?
What else can you tell me to look out for when evaluating which speaker to choose ?
Hope to be able to learn something from your experience - please keep us posted on your new projects !
Chef
In Memoriam
So I might as well can delete this post again and let you buy nicely packed thrash?[/QUOTE]
Please don't do that, this was a very nice read, and I enjoyed you coming here and sharing your project with us.
Please don't do that, this was a very nice read, and I enjoyed you coming here and sharing your project with us.
Lemon... What I wrote was intended to be a joke and was in no way meant to criticize what you've posted. I should have known better than to write my post as I did and I apologize if I offended you in any way.
That's what the wink, smile 
and "just kidding" <jk> were about.
What I wrote was really an insult directed toward myself and perhaps others like me... An armchair loudspeaker designer would be a person who might design loudspeaker enclosures as a hobby and may be less knowledgable than they think they are.
That's what the wink
, smile and "just kidding" <jk> were about.What I wrote was really an insult directed toward myself and perhaps others like me... An armchair loudspeaker designer would be a person who might design loudspeaker enclosures as a hobby and may be less knowledgable than they think they are.
mgood said:dB = deciBells. A system of measurement. The Bell is named for Alexander Graham Bell and was first used by the phone company when they needed a way to measure signals when running lines across the US. The decibell is one tenth of a Bell. (We don't really use Bells in audio.) They are a ratio of something to something else and don't really mean anything without a reference like dBVU or something. In these specs, we can assume that it's deciBells of Sound Pressure Level - dB SPL.
Hz = Hertz, where you rent cars.Hertz means cycles per second.
RMS = Root Means Square. It's a way of standardizing amplifier output ratings. It's sort of an average. I forget just exactly how it's figured.
A bit more detailed here. The decibel scale is a logarithmic scale based on sound "intensity", or any other quantity that can be compared with a ratio. Please note the spelling decibel (not Bell). Here's a good basic article to explain the logarithmic decibel scale and some definitions: Invalid Link Removed
Hertz is indeed a measure of cycles per second.
RMS means Root Mean Square. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Root_mean_square Is a good explanation of the meaning of this.
Just added for the sake of detail.
As for the prototype, it's great to make your own stuff. You seem to have put a lot of thought into many aspects of bass cabinets and audio. I'm VERY happy you realize the benefit of focusing on design aspects other than hitting 30Hz. You seem to understand that the fundamental, while it is there, tends to make the bass sound muddy with a band. It also requires a lot of power. The drivers for such low frequency reproduction are often not great for mid and high end. Most importantly for gigging bassists without their own hired road crews, cabinets that actually respond down to 30Hz with any appreciable sensitivity (I acknowledge Acme as one solution here - but again, low sensitivity) are too big and heavy.
Prepare yourself for some scrutiny here - there are a lot of experienced builders here, some representatives from different companies, as well as some engineers with a lot of technical knowledge. There's always scrutiny (criticism) where new products are concerned.
Enjoy testing your prototypes. I know the feeling of finally using something you've made with your own mind and hands. It's truly amazing, so enjoy that.
BassIan said:
Very nice that you post the basics those are important.
im ok with critics as long as its constructive.
some times my english isnt good enough to get it though. =)
I dont want to sound self centered, but im pretty sure that im as good as any of those Ingeneers wich make cabs for those Companys.
It has to do with the experience I have and the equipement, I can use.
If you dont have a Measurement system you wont be able to get
any kind of technical useful experience.
I have the luck that i can use the Neutrik A2 measurement gear including the Mic. this is one of the best systems there is. cost about $10000 or more. the point wich makes this to one of the best measurement systems is, it shows what you hear. it is made that way on purpose.
it means your eyes and your ears are linked.
If you use a computer it isnt like that. it shows whats there but its easy to mis-interprete, and it actually wont give you the same result or sound in the end.
32 Hz or not thats the question......
Actually 64 Hz is allready very fat and undefined, what a musician would call the pitch wich he still can indentify as a B is even higher,
the low B would be lowest hearable as a pitch is 128 Hz.
and im even so ba and say most people cant tell even with 128 Hz.
for example the Jaco sound is a loooot of, (I take the E-string for that example 41.5 Hz, 83 Hz, 166 Hz) what you hear is alot of 166 Hz
the 83 and the 41 are just " the FAT on the bone "
In the case of Jaco that, fat is there but at a very low volume.
think of a Sub-Woofer those are cut @ around 100 Hz, on a Pa they cut lower, like 80Hz imn most cases, and in home Hifi 100Hz. (some times they cheat and its up to 120 Hz)
The reason.....
it gets really difficult to tell from where the sound comes if everything cut above 100 Hz.
So if you cant tell from where it comes, well then i guess is close to that you cant really tell what the pitch is.
Think of the range of a Bass, a 6 string goes from 32 Hz to 880 Hz.
thats the fundamentals only,
I would say to about 3500 Hz its useful and if you count the highest part of the finger sliding over the strings noise in, its 5000 Hz.
in order to play especially frettless you need to hear the pitch.
(im exagerating now)
if you have ****loads of frequencys in the two numbers area like
32 Hz you dont hear what you re doing,
you dont hear what the others do,
you dont hear anything its just a loud muddy pressure filling the room.
if you want a more clear sound, the 2 numbers ferquences are there but at a much lower level.
The Cab I made goes down to 65 @ -3 dB
this is allready veeeeeeeeeeryyyyyyyyyy FAAAAAT,
It theoretically doesent even go down to 32 hz,
practically it does, but at a very small volume, just very little more of that annoying FAT on the bottom........
.......... wich I actually cut off. hehehe
you know why ???
NO ?????
You should by now =)))))
Well it just drain instantly all the power from your niiiice 500 digital watts amp. to reproduce 32 Hz a -3 dB clean, you need minimum a conventional 2K Watt Amp to produce a useful sound in a band with a loud drummer.
if you go digital I d say 1K to 1.5K watt has enough reserve.
best would be one of those new PA Amp those you and put the volume knob to max. You cant kill it and it just wont get louder before it starts to distort.
so if you really want those 32 Hz you need
a couple of good 18 " or better 21" Drivers,
most likely in a 30 to 40 cu. feet cab
a 4*10 or better a 4*12 cab to hear the pitch.
a 2 K watt PA amp and a good 500w or better 800W Bassamp with a preamp out or DI out.
then you can really DubmetalandwhateverstyleneedsLOWbass the
s**t out of your self.
One warning though
YOUR EARS !!!!
dont screw em you have onnly one set......
sound pressure over 100 dB can damage you ears very easy.
its wise to use earplugs if you dont want to be deaf over time.
there is some really good ones, moldet it costs more but those are really very good and its more than worth the money.
Good luck you all,
maybe we could make a little Cab project thogether here in this forum.
with some speaker chassis you can get =)
how about that ?
maybe the name could be
THTBC
The Homegrown Talk Bass Cab
or
TBC
Talk Bass Cab
well I dont know if we re allowed to do that so I let you guys find out =)
see ya Lemon
OldogNewTrick said:
hahaha wo bist denn du zuhause ? De ?
hahaha where you @ home ? Germany ?
Kannste ja mal vorbeikommen und antesten.
vielleicht glauben die mir dann das das Teil kein Schrott ist und besser als vieles aus dem Laden klingt
You could swing by and check it out, maybe the guys here will then believe me that it isnt just crap and better than many things you can get in the Store.
Sorry about the screen-shot size but i think I cant really upoload any biger size pics.
Thats the problem you need experience in order to make some thing wich is going to work for almost shure.
I looked through many many drivers, and you cant really say i need this Q and that B&L its allways a mix of it all an also a compromise,
but if you can get the compromise to a small as possible rate and find a driver wich is really good optimized and well made then it will be a couple of notches better than average.
As far as the Xmax concerns, I dont think its really like you mentioned.
it depends also on how tight the diaphragm is mounted.
if you have short Xmax in order to push it with high voltage it has to be harder mounted, but then the bass out put decreases.
low xmax + soft suspension = xdamage reachet with low voltage = less dB
and you know that you need every single dB if you dont have a PA Poweramp.
there is very good Standart Speakers,
do you really believe that the OEMs are better ????
they cant change the physical laws even if they print "BRANDNAME "
on the duscap nor can they change it by changing the Coil from 8 to 4 Ohm
Its just phisycal laws, you cant fool it =)
the only thing OEM is, is LOOKS and maybe some different Parameters to fit a certain size Speaker or match with a other driver.
That doesent really mean OEM is better its just different
and it is maybe even worse.
I dont think that a manufacturer of Loudspeakers makes on purpose bad Chassis for the Consumer
Try Ciare those are expensive but good.
you have to take 400 for a 12" in your hand, but with te right enclosure thats going to be better than most cabs in the music store around the corner.
I know Im bashing companys but tell me please, what the hell should I think of them, if i plug my Sixstring or my Double Bass in to theyr products
and all I get is instantly lame sucked empty amps and cabs wich sound like **** and distort that it hurts my ears, because I know how high harmonic distortion sounds, the worst is , and that pissed me the most is, specs wich can only be a BIIG LIE ! Im sorry but its just not right, there is a few Companys wich are close to the truth but even these guys are not telling
you everything and why not ??
because they re affraid that you wont buy the product because also they use the 32Hz marketig strategy. what I dont like about it si, this way
we never know what we re buying and you have to thrust your ears only.
This is a bad idea though your ears might not tell you about all the covered up bad points of that speaker wich maes it not as good as advertised.
Its just a fact and about the same as physical laws the a Flat response speaker will allways sound better than a fixed up one.
and if you really want than 200 Hz bump and that 3 K bump you can still add it. but the speaker will allways sound more clear and warmer if all frequencys are about the same loud.
later =)
Lemon
BillyB_from_LZ said:Lemon... What I wrote was intended to be a joke and was in no way meant to criticize what you've posted. I should have known better than to write my post as I did and I apologize if I offended you in any way.
That's what the wink
What I wrote was really an insult directed toward myself and perhaps others like me... An armchair loudspeaker designer would be a person who might design loudspeaker enclosures as a hobby and may be less knowledgable than they think they are.
dont worry now I got it =)
Nice looking speakers!
Since you are happy with a large box, I suggest modeling some 15" systems, because you might be able to get the same response with a standard driver. A standard 15" will always cost less than a custom 12".
Since you are happy with a large box, I suggest modeling some 15" systems, because you might be able to get the same response with a standard driver. A standard 15" will always cost less than a custom 12".
Lemon, you have your own Neutrik system ?? That is serious equipment...
In order to evaluate your own designs, you need (to have access to) one.
Is there anywhere on the web, where someone has published the ACTUAL response curves for common cabs, lets say from Ampeg HLF to Accugroove (heavy coloured to hifi). Or I'd be interested to see the response curves for cabs which are known to be great in a live band setting, say Edens, and something more "studio"
To my knowledge, the ONLY company publishing response curves is Phil Jones Bass....
In order to evaluate your own designs, you need (to have access to) one.
Is there anywhere on the web, where someone has published the ACTUAL response curves for common cabs, lets say from Ampeg HLF to Accugroove (heavy coloured to hifi). Or I'd be interested to see the response curves for cabs which are known to be great in a live band setting, say Edens, and something more "studio"
To my knowledge, the ONLY company publishing response curves is Phil Jones Bass....
fdeck said:
actually it isnt large its two small cabinets.
15" well not really maybe 2*10 and a 15, but a 15.
I like 12".
15s" are good too as well as 10s"
but if you have 10" you will miss some of what a 15" gives you
and if you have a 15" you will miss what a 10" gives you.
i think a 12" is a good compromise.
but of yourse its allwqys a matter of taste & preference.
OldogNewTrick said:
I do have accesss to a A2 including the apropriate Mic.
I dont own it, I can ask to use it if I finished a preoject.
they re very nice an let me do that.
and it really helped me to understand what it all is about, it made me get those last 10% understanding.
I would never be able to buy one because it costs as much as a small new car.
=)
Lemon
does anybody know where actual cab response curves can be found ? I'm sure they all ahve been measured and plotted - by the manufacturers, their competitors and hopefully some hobbyist, who posted them on the net
OldogNewTrick said:does anybody know where actual cab response curves can be found ? I'm sure they all ahve been measured and plotted - by the manufacturers, their competitors and hopefully some hobbyist, who posted them on the net
Now you re talking =)
this looks like a true response to me.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Lets styr it up a little ! ! !
why do all those manufacturers NOT show us facts ????
why are they affraid of that ?
why does a guy like jones not care, an show the thruth ???
I guess he must be convinced that his stuff is good.
I never heard any amp or any cab of this company but I find it
very brave to show what he`s got in a honest way.
I can see that those cabs sound some different from each other.
but Im pretty shure if that frequency plot it true, some of the models must sound
good. I cant really tell how that speaker it self sounds but the plots say lots.
I'd be surprised if any manufacturers, at least the most popular mainstream ones, would post such data, for a number of reasons:
1. Most bassists don't really care.
2. There is a lot more to how a cabinet sounds than its frequency response. Transient response, phase response and distortion all matter too (and I don't have a clue what a graph of any of those should look like, but I do know when I like what I hear).
3. If the product is known for "having massive low end" or "flat response", why publish a frequency response curve that might suggest that it really doesn't (relative to what the reader perceives a frequency response curve for the particular superlative would look like) and kill potential sales?
Ultimately what really matters is how the cabinet sounds in the situations that it will be used in.
1. Most bassists don't really care.
2. There is a lot more to how a cabinet sounds than its frequency response. Transient response, phase response and distortion all matter too (and I don't have a clue what a graph of any of those should look like, but I do know when I like what I hear).
3. If the product is known for "having massive low end" or "flat response", why publish a frequency response curve that might suggest that it really doesn't (relative to what the reader perceives a frequency response curve for the particular superlative would look like) and kill potential sales?
Ultimately what really matters is how the cabinet sounds in the situations that it will be used in.
I know, I know, in the manufacturer's case, why destroy a perfectly good marketing hype with an open display of fact
Sure, not many bassists care, but some do. I for one would just like to know, how attributed sound characteristic translate into something more tangible... The thing is, when venturing to build your own cab, not only need you to choose a great driver, but there are so many ways of tuning a cab for specific applications...
Sure, not many bassists care, but some do. I for one would just like to know, how attributed sound characteristic translate into something more tangible... The thing is, when venturing to build your own cab, not only need you to choose a great driver, but there are so many ways of tuning a cab for specific applications...
Two TB members publish curves for their products: Phil Jones and Bill Fitzmaurice. And of course you know the response of a "flat" speaker such as Acme, to within the dB tolerance that they publish.
You can measure the response curve of a speaker without expensive equipment. Click on my sig for details. A lot of audio analysis can be done with software that uses the audio hardware on your PC. Even experts on the rec.audio.tech newsgroup agree that the PC audio hardware produces accurate measurements. You don't get a calibrated amplitude scale unless you have an external voltmeter and SPL meter. But we DIY'ers can't make a super-accurate SPL measurement anyway unless we work outdoors. For most purposes, being able to make an educated guess about the overall SPL is sufficient, and is unnecessary if you are comparing speakers side-by-side.
If someone lets you borrow an expensive calibrated system, use it to calibrate your own cheap microphone
You can measure the response curve of a speaker without expensive equipment. Click on my sig for details. A lot of audio analysis can be done with software that uses the audio hardware on your PC. Even experts on the rec.audio.tech newsgroup agree that the PC audio hardware produces accurate measurements. You don't get a calibrated amplitude scale unless you have an external voltmeter and SPL meter. But we DIY'ers can't make a super-accurate SPL measurement anyway unless we work outdoors. For most purposes, being able to make an educated guess about the overall SPL is sufficient, and is unnecessary if you are comparing speakers side-by-side.
If someone lets you borrow an expensive calibrated system, use it to calibrate your own cheap microphone
OldogNewTrick said:I know, I know, in the manufacturer's case, why destroy a perfectly good marketing hype with an open display of fact
I understand (and agree with) what you're saying to a certain extent, but one shouldn't rely on technical data in place of using the ears... Afterall, the cabinet is just the last stepping stone along the path to the overall tone that you want to produce.
