I think the new 15's don't get enough credit.
The old school ones were pretty lumpy sounding. But the newer, high-end stuff is quite respectable.
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What do you value in a cab?
- Thread starter kelsound
- Start date
I think the new 15's don't get enough credit.
The old school ones were pretty lumpy sounding. But the newer, high-end stuff is quite respectable.
Thing is, such low extension kills the perfection (for me). Your bass creates a lot of mud down there. Most of the time it will just sound like a pillowy sustained "boom" which has no real definition or clarity, it just adds to the depth of the sound but is something that will mostly get eaten while gigging with PA support or you will simply end up being eaten by the kick drum down there. There is a reason why a vast majority of studio technicians cut bass at least at anything below 50-60hz. It depends on the music style though, so these are questions that require a subjective answer and cannot be answered in an objective fashion. While someone likes this type of a cab/sound/voicing, another one dislikes it. Both are correct, up to the listener to decide for himself.
In my experience I have found that frequencies in the 50-250hz area are the ones responsible for bass thickness, meat and depth. Anything below and it starts to mess up with the drum kick extension, which kills the mix for me. With a sealed cab, any band I plug in (from reggae to rock to jazz) it just works, everything flat and you sit just right in the mix, can hear all drums, guitars, brass, and still hear myself with a defined, clear, projected bass tone.
Saying all that, I understand your needs
Just my 50 cents though
Thank you. Yes, I hear what you are saying about muddy lows. Going real deep can get ugly. But as you say, if the kick drum average is 60 Hz, the bass player, depending on music genre, might have something under that.
I'm curious how many players out there would actually value that....
In other words, it's there if you need it, but it's not getting in the way, if that makes sense...
Well it depends what you want the kick drum to sound you know. A kick drum if cut below 60hz will tend to sound like a "basket ball" kick. That's how I like to call it.
If you analyse the kick in a multimeter you will see that its natural response goes very deep, can and will easily contain a lot of sound in 30ish hz area and even subsonic. So, if you want a nice and deep kick you will want to retain that sub content. Kick definition is usually residing around 60ish (+-) for punch and between 2-4khz for top end definition (usually closer to 2khz for the classic vintage-y type and closer to 4khz to the more "metal-like" hi-fi-ish kick). Knowing this, it is kind of counter-intuitive to push bass frequencies to fight with these areas, especially in the low area. Speakers will struggle with defining and separating the two apart and doing so will usually result in a bad mix. Sure, you can fix some things with a well placed side-chain compression but it isn't the first thing I would personally do when mixing stuff. The mix tends to resolve much nicer when you separate kick and bass by relieving frequencies mentioned above and it shows in live mixes too. Again, it depends on the genre and personal opinion but if you want a kick drum to stick out, cutting the bass apropriately is something you really want to do first.
My personal preference and philosophy in a mix is that a kick drum for me should have the last word sub frequency-wise. Drums in my book should wrap the sound of the band around. Overheads should be the sweet top and sizzle of the mix while kick drum should be the lowest. Bass for me gets the thickness and definition in the low mid area with upper freqs supporting and expanding the bass to really sit nice and full in the mix.
Well I have one new cab with an Eminence 2515 II neo, that speaker is known for its more “vintage” voicing it’s the cab that gets the most use just as a matter of convenience. The others a 68 Sunn 200s with Altecs, a musicman 115 with an EVM 15 b, and rare ACC Acoustic 420 cab (folded horn) with an EVM 15L, I guess they are old and lumpy like me.
1, I could give a rip
2, Black is alway preferred with a heavy stamped steel grill, and significantly thicker than a sheet of aluminum foil that passes in today’s market
3, I travel up to 7 hours away
4, I have NEVER heard and band mate of sound tech complain about the sound or presence of my rig.
5, Make the more durable, damn the weight.
6, there are very few cabs I would buy. Frankly, mine will function for the rest of my life as long as Eminence continues to make rebuild kits. The construction, design, quality materials, as well as tuning, have no peer.
7, Pretty much flat with a slight boost at 130hz on the EQ. These are full range cabs. I play a 5 string and there is plenty enough low end on the B without it being detrimentally overwhelming.
8, according to the published technical manuals offered by the manufacturer, one of my two cabs is rated to 32hz, but who knows if that is entirely accurate or just wishful thinking. I will say this, my other cab is rated @ 48hz, and there is a significant difference between the two. Will it handle a Low B, undoubtedly, but as mentioned there is a thing called overkill, and too much low B, and you know what I’m talking about here, isn’t helping your band out any, not mention POing your sound tech to no end.
If you don't trust the science, you can always test it out for yourself.
These days, it's pretty easy to do- use a rack power amp and a flat response preamp to power an original fEarful or two, and put a high-quality HPF in front of the preamp.
Then start gradually raising the cutoff point on the HPF. If you're like the rest of us, initially, you'll just hear the low end getting tighter and more satisfying. But at some point, you'll start to hear and feel something missing from the fundamental.
I can pretty much guarantee that you won't feel any negative effects at 30Hz, but you ought to perceive a noticeable loss once you get much above 60Hz. It's all about preserving that good strong octave harmonic of the fundamental.
I went through all of this way back in the early '80's. I bought my first 5-string before you could get matched string sets, never mind low B-friendly amps and cabs. The B sounded pretty satisfying right from day 1, but I knew I was missing something, and I got pretty obsessive about getting to hear and feel an actual 30Hz fundamental.
I started with instruments, then started fiddling with electronics, looking for gear that was flat down to 10 or 20Hz. Cabs were next, and I eventually got there with a custom Thiel alignment that used a tailored active EQ to make up for the natural rolloff of the cab.
There wasn't a ton of headroom (I only had a single 250w 15" in a bin the size of a compact 2x15), but it was pretty cool within it's limits. Just as others here have suggested, it only really worked on slow songs- a big, sustained pedal note at low B or C was pretty satisfying. But it really muddied up the low end on fast songs, especially in rooms with no acoustic treatment.
Fast-forward to today, and pretty much everyone has it all scienced out. AudioKinesis builds a bunch of great cabs that are pretty much dead flat down to 60Hz, giving you a great, punchy and usable low B that doesn't screw up the kick or get FOH breathing down your neck. Greenboy, Barefaced and others offer interesting variations on the same theme.
i'm still willing to accept weight when it adds up to tone. my old brickhouse cabinets deliver in this regard.
i like full-voiced, from the very bottom to the very top, powerful cabinets. there's a depth, and a girth, to the ones i like. I do not like boomyness - but depth. bass needs to be felt, big and powerful, but to me "big and powerful" can be represented visually as a giant boulder rolling down a mountain. I like that. The boomyness i speak of i would visualize as mud - or perhaps trying to drive through mud and being barely able to maneuver.
i don't really care about looks of my cabinets.. i definitely do appreciate heavy duty and practically placed handles, though.
i like full-voiced, from the very bottom to the very top, powerful cabinets. there's a depth, and a girth, to the ones i like. I do not like boomyness - but depth. bass needs to be felt, big and powerful, but to me "big and powerful" can be represented visually as a giant boulder rolling down a mountain. I like that. The boomyness i speak of i would visualize as mud - or perhaps trying to drive through mud and being barely able to maneuver.
i don't really care about looks of my cabinets.. i definitely do appreciate heavy duty and practically placed handles, though.
1). Weight.Do you have a limit? No. My Mesa 6x10 weighs in around 170lbs, if I recall correctly.
Will you pay more for neo drivers in the same cab than if it had ceramic drivers? If it sounded as good or better; possibly.
Do you already use a dolly for every load-in/out? Caster and/or cases.
2). Looks.
Do you prefer typical black and metal grills, or a more old school tweed with cloth grill look (assuming performance is the same)? Other? Protection over looks. My number one is currently a 6x10 Mesa Roadready cabinet. It is its own road case with covers and is on casters. The Bagend cabinets are the Deep Red series and all in cases on casters. The Ampeg 2x10 is the only one that is rarely in its case and used mostly on light-weight gigs.
3). Travel.
Do you use your own vehicle, or public transportation? Or a horse?? :0 Own vehicle, often a truck with sound and light gear.
Casters, Yes or No? Almost always.
4). Complaints.
Do you ever get complaints from band mates that say they can't hear the bass, or the bass sounds like mud? Often. I don't play the volume wars game and very rarely turn up after soundcheck. I let the PA (mine or theirs) do the heavy lifting. If you elected to continually turn up and are still dumb enough to wonder why you can't hear monitors or the bass, that's your problem.
Added: Everything I own is way more than capable putting out a large amount of sound. I just choose to not accommodate volume creep of others.
5). What is the biggest thing you would change with all the cabinets available today? That they were making bass cabs lighter, because they sound better, not purely to make them lighter.
Or are you happy with what is available? I'm happy with the choices (see number 2, above) that I personally have. I've tried various other cabs in my travels and nothing has created the urge to replace what I've got.
6). With mom & pop shops drying-up, and GeetarCenters having very limited brands, how do you find a good cab? Travel to far away store? Advice from friends? Online reviews? YouTube reviews? Other? I try out things when the opportunity arises. Unless I know the person or reputation of the person reviewing something, I hold very little value of the opinion of someone posting a non-critical review of something that they are probably looking for affirmation of something they've already purchased. Even a Berhinger will get a couple good reviews.
7). What sound do you prefer: Depends on what I'm playing and what the person who hired me wants to hear. Again, through experience, the equipment I've elected to keep has given me pretty wide range of sound choices, including both below:
Full mid-range and good lows....not worried about that zingy high-end to 10kHz?
Or full dynamic range maybe with mid pulled back a little? highs extend to 10kHz.
8). Lowwwww B
How many need a cab that handles the low B (like actually is strong below 40Hz)? Probably not many, given the limitations of the average PA. But it's sure fun to dabble around down in that area!
Will you pay more for neo drivers in the same cab than if it had ceramic drivers? If it sounded as good or better; possibly.
Do you already use a dolly for every load-in/out? Caster and/or cases.
2). Looks.
Do you prefer typical black and metal grills, or a more old school tweed with cloth grill look (assuming performance is the same)? Other? Protection over looks. My number one is currently a 6x10 Mesa Roadready cabinet. It is its own road case with covers and is on casters. The Bagend cabinets are the Deep Red series and all in cases on casters. The Ampeg 2x10 is the only one that is rarely in its case and used mostly on light-weight gigs.
3). Travel.
Do you use your own vehicle, or public transportation? Or a horse?? :0 Own vehicle, often a truck with sound and light gear.
Casters, Yes or No? Almost always.
4). Complaints.
Do you ever get complaints from band mates that say they can't hear the bass, or the bass sounds like mud? Often. I don't play the volume wars game and very rarely turn up after soundcheck. I let the PA (mine or theirs) do the heavy lifting. If you elected to continually turn up and are still dumb enough to wonder why you can't hear monitors or the bass, that's your problem.
Added: Everything I own is way more than capable putting out a large amount of sound. I just choose to not accommodate volume creep of others.
5). What is the biggest thing you would change with all the cabinets available today? That they were making bass cabs lighter, because they sound better, not purely to make them lighter.
Or are you happy with what is available? I'm happy with the choices (see number 2, above) that I personally have. I've tried various other cabs in my travels and nothing has created the urge to replace what I've got.
6). With mom & pop shops drying-up, and GeetarCenters having very limited brands, how do you find a good cab? Travel to far away store? Advice from friends? Online reviews? YouTube reviews? Other? I try out things when the opportunity arises. Unless I know the person or reputation of the person reviewing something, I hold very little value of the opinion of someone posting a non-critical review of something that they are probably looking for affirmation of something they've already purchased. Even a Berhinger will get a couple good reviews.
7). What sound do you prefer: Depends on what I'm playing and what the person who hired me wants to hear. Again, through experience, the equipment I've elected to keep has given me pretty wide range of sound choices, including both below:
Full mid-range and good lows....not worried about that zingy high-end to 10kHz?
Or full dynamic range maybe with mid pulled back a little? highs extend to 10kHz.
8). Lowwwww B
How many need a cab that handles the low B (like actually is strong below 40Hz)? Probably not many, given the limitations of the average PA. But it's sure fun to dabble around down in that area!
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Yes, I totally agree with your theories/style on mix. I am very similar in thinking.
Hint: Blend a U47 FET into the whatever your kick drum mic normally is. Talk about lows!!!
But I'm not driving in that direction. I'm gathering info on what gigging players need from the cab they take with them to gigs. Thus, take the house mix (if there is one) out of the equation. But what do you want from that cab behind you?
Haaaaa!!!!!!! Jeeze these responses are great...old and dumpy....!!!!!
Eminence is top-notch. I'm glad they are in the USA!
I've never had the chance to hear most of the cabs you reference. I'm really curious how the Acoustic 420 sounds, and how efficient it is with the addition of the horn loading. Is it noticeably more efficient than other typical boxes?
Very good info. All makes perfect sense.
My Mesa WD800 has a high pass, and I use it even with my 5 string, and it does help to clean things up, as long as I don't go too far up. I do it by ear, not sure what frequency, but I guess the I'm starting to roll-off in the mid 30Hz range. I think it's a steep roll-off too, but I forget. Maybe 18 dB/oct. I forget....
Thank you Steve.
Portability
Power
Complete Tone
I want something I can move myself, will fit in my car, will rattle the fillings out of your teeth, and doesn't completely color my tone.
Power
Complete Tone
I want something I can move myself, will fit in my car, will rattle the fillings out of your teeth, and doesn't completely color my tone.
The bigger heavier and more drivers the better.
Sound quality is important of course. But Eminence got that covered.
Other than that. Looks is important.
Should be wide, 24" or more. Should have a pleasing good looking height ratio. Can't stand skinny tall goofy dumb looking cabs.
For god sakes no plastic corners. No freaking rat fur. No turd looking metal grills. Or flea market sub cover metal grills.
Plain n simple tolex and cloth grill.
Thin edge cabinets are hideous. Ugly ports. Bed liner belongs on truck beds.
8x eminence drivers. Tolex and grill.
Easy peasy
Sound quality is important of course. But Eminence got that covered.
Other than that. Looks is important.
Should be wide, 24" or more. Should have a pleasing good looking height ratio. Can't stand skinny tall goofy dumb looking cabs.
For god sakes no plastic corners. No freaking rat fur. No turd looking metal grills. Or flea market sub cover metal grills.
Plain n simple tolex and cloth grill.
Thin edge cabinets are hideous. Ugly ports. Bed liner belongs on truck beds.
8x eminence drivers. Tolex and grill.
Easy peasy
For the record, my main gigging cab is a Bergantino HD210. I also have an HD410 that I bring out for bigger shows.
1). Weight.
I’d be happy if they were lighter, but I find them manageable. I can do the HD210 in one hand, the HD410 is usually a two person lug.
2). Looks.
I prefer the look of all black tolex with a black metal grill. I really love the design of Bergantino cabs. But I’m a sucker for cloth grill too.
3). Travel.
My HD210 lives in the trunk of my car with plenty of space to spare for my bass, amp and ‘emergency bag’ full of strings, cables etc.
The HD410 fits snug, with a little less space. I have taken them to gigs in an Uber/taxi but never on a train.
4). Complaints.
Other than the weight, I have no complaints, nor have I received any from band members.
5). What is the biggest thing you would change with all the cabinets available today?
Price and availability in Australia. I think the rest is personal taste.
6). How do you buy your cabs?
The HD410 was bought from a local boutique dealer, the HD210 second hand from a fellow bassist.
7). What sound do you prefer?
I prefer a clean, transparent and well balanced sound. Bergantino cabs are the best that I have tried that are within my budget and are available in Oz.
8). Lowwwww B
I own one 5 string and it only gets about 6% of my gigs. However, I’ve never had an issue with the low B farting out or distorting through my current cabs.
For the record, I’ve owned everything from single 12’s, 2x12’s and 1x15’s but I’ve always found 10’s to be my preference.
1). Weight.
I’d be happy if they were lighter, but I find them manageable. I can do the HD210 in one hand, the HD410 is usually a two person lug.
2). Looks.
I prefer the look of all black tolex with a black metal grill. I really love the design of Bergantino cabs. But I’m a sucker for cloth grill too.
3). Travel.
My HD210 lives in the trunk of my car with plenty of space to spare for my bass, amp and ‘emergency bag’ full of strings, cables etc.
The HD410 fits snug, with a little less space. I have taken them to gigs in an Uber/taxi but never on a train.
4). Complaints.
Other than the weight, I have no complaints, nor have I received any from band members.
5). What is the biggest thing you would change with all the cabinets available today?
Price and availability in Australia. I think the rest is personal taste.
6). How do you buy your cabs?
The HD410 was bought from a local boutique dealer, the HD210 second hand from a fellow bassist.
7). What sound do you prefer?
I prefer a clean, transparent and well balanced sound. Bergantino cabs are the best that I have tried that are within my budget and are available in Oz.
8). Lowwwww B
I own one 5 string and it only gets about 6% of my gigs. However, I’ve never had an issue with the low B farting out or distorting through my current cabs.
For the record, I’ve owned everything from single 12’s, 2x12’s and 1x15’s but I’ve always found 10’s to be my preference.
It has to speak clearly and loudly, and be felt across my range - which comes from a four string. No other restrictions as far as I'm concerned. Oh, and Guitar Center has the largest selection of bass equipment in the world - used gear.
1). Weight.
Do you have a limit? Yes. 40-45 pounds.
Will you pay more for neo drivers in the same cab than if it had ceramic drivers? Yes.
Do you already use a dolly for every load-in/out? No.
2). Looks.
Do you prefer typical black and metal grills, or a more old school tweed with cloth grill look (assuming performance is the same)? Other? No. I don't have preferences.
3). Travel.
Do you use your own vehicle, or public transportation? Or a horse?? :0 Car or public transportation.
Casters, Yes or No? No
4). Complaints.
Do you ever get complaints from band mates that say they can't hear the bass, or the bass sounds like mud? Yes. In one of my bands, the guys ask me to turn up. In the other band, the guys ask me to turn down...
5). What is the biggest thing you would change with all the cabinets available today?
Or are you happy with what is available? I am generally happy with what is available. However, I might find useful a mid-sized cab (1x12, 2x10) with upwards-firing mids/high speaker... as I tend to place my cab on the ground and stand above it...
6). With mom & pop shops drying-up, and GeetarCenters having very limited brands, how do you find a good cab? Travel to far away store? Advice from friends? Online reviews? YouTube reviews? Other?
Talkbass...
7). What sound do you prefer:
Full mid-range and good lows....not worried about that zingy high-end to 10kHz? This
Or full dynamic range maybe with mid pulled back a little? highs extend to 10kHz. No
8). Lowwwww B
How many need a cab that handles the low B (like actually is strong below 40Hz)? I don't
Good luck!
Do you have a limit? Yes. 40-45 pounds.
Will you pay more for neo drivers in the same cab than if it had ceramic drivers? Yes.
Do you already use a dolly for every load-in/out? No.
2). Looks.
Do you prefer typical black and metal grills, or a more old school tweed with cloth grill look (assuming performance is the same)? Other? No. I don't have preferences.
3). Travel.
Do you use your own vehicle, or public transportation? Or a horse?? :0 Car or public transportation.
Casters, Yes or No? No
4). Complaints.
Do you ever get complaints from band mates that say they can't hear the bass, or the bass sounds like mud? Yes. In one of my bands, the guys ask me to turn up. In the other band, the guys ask me to turn down...
5). What is the biggest thing you would change with all the cabinets available today?
Or are you happy with what is available? I am generally happy with what is available. However, I might find useful a mid-sized cab (1x12, 2x10) with upwards-firing mids/high speaker... as I tend to place my cab on the ground and stand above it...
6). With mom & pop shops drying-up, and GeetarCenters having very limited brands, how do you find a good cab? Travel to far away store? Advice from friends? Online reviews? YouTube reviews? Other?
Talkbass...
7). What sound do you prefer:
Full mid-range and good lows....not worried about that zingy high-end to 10kHz? This
Or full dynamic range maybe with mid pulled back a little? highs extend to 10kHz. No
8). Lowwwww B
How many need a cab that handles the low B (like actually is strong below 40Hz)? I don't
Good luck!
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I think I've just found (for now) the ideal gigging cab. 29 pounds. Steel grill. 18 x 24 x 12." 400 watt Mesa Boogie 112 4 ohm speaker. Big rounded port-- the cab is designed like the DNA DNS 112 Micro.
I don't care about brand names on a cab. The cab has rat fur but is well done. As long as a cab performs and is easy to schlep I'm happy. I'm not a gear snob but my equipment has to perform excellently so I can play and not think about it.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that the 12" driver in my new cab is a Mesa Boogie Neo and handles 300 watts. I pushed it really hard last week and it never even broke up. It's incredible what volume and bottom end can come out of small cabs these days!
I don't care about brand names on a cab. The cab has rat fur but is well done. As long as a cab performs and is easy to schlep I'm happy. I'm not a gear snob but my equipment has to perform excellently so I can play and not think about it.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that the 12" driver in my new cab is a Mesa Boogie Neo and handles 300 watts. I pushed it really hard last week and it never even broke up. It's incredible what volume and bottom end can come out of small cabs these days!
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Light weight, great tone, handle a ton of power and be able to take the low B. In other words my Epifani UL410.
