I did not say clearer - this effect happens outdoors. I may be using incorrect semantics, but I've heard it for years.
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What happened to folded horn cabs?
- Thread starter Luckie
- Start date
i've heard a lot of things over the years that turned out to be something else from what i thought it was, too.
ok, so you have a speaker putting out sound. but magically the sound doesn't work anywhere near it but it works very well 30 ft out? impossible. sound travels in such a way that when you're closer to sound producing objects, you hear them way better, and the volume decreases as you go away from them, unless acted upon by outside factors such as room reflections. and how come headphones work so well if bass waves really had to travel 30 ft to be heard?
want to learn how sound really works? hang around this forum for a while. it's a real education. can't tell you how much i've learned here.
billfitzmaurice
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Amps larger than 200 watts. Horns allow you to get loud, low and clean without a lot of power. When big amps became common cheaper direct radiating speakers were able to do what it took horns to do before big amps.
Myth.
http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=999
Myth.
Myth.
What separates the layman from the engineer is that the layman knows what he hears, the engineer knows why he hears it.
fris: you might want to become familiar with the 3015LF loaded fEarful design. Once you learn about those, you will forever feel different about your "everything else is basswimpy" statement. I guarantee it!
Plus, it's only a 45 pound cab that's 30" high, 20" wide, and 16" deep (easy schlep). Just one is usually sufficient for all but the largest gigs provided you feed it enough power. Stack two of those and feed them enough juice and you will generate enough bass to set off an earthquake.
One issue with the horn is directivity...... I suspect this is the basis of the "throw" myth.
If the cabinet is rather directive (and almost by definition a horn is quite directive down to fairly close to its cutoff), you can stand next to it and have much of the sound power just pass by you so that you do not hear it clearly unless you are "in the beam". You will tend to hear the "least directed" sound, which will be the bottom octave or so, and may experience it as "muffled" or "closed" sounding.
In any case, you probably need a mid driver, as Jimmy says, because mids dont get through the "folds" of the horn particularly well. And then the mids may be imbalanced, because the horn is efficient at lows, but the mids may not be unless they are in turn horn loaded.
And folded horns with good performance DO tend to be bigger.....I don't see this as a "myth", really. You can do some compensation for bad effects with the "box" the driver is in, but for very low frequencies, the horn generally needs to be relatively large in order to get the benefits of the horn loading. ("Voice of the Theatre" cabinets notwithstanding).
If the cabinet is rather directive (and almost by definition a horn is quite directive down to fairly close to its cutoff), you can stand next to it and have much of the sound power just pass by you so that you do not hear it clearly unless you are "in the beam". You will tend to hear the "least directed" sound, which will be the bottom octave or so, and may experience it as "muffled" or "closed" sounding.
In any case, you probably need a mid driver, as Jimmy says, because mids dont get through the "folds" of the horn particularly well. And then the mids may be imbalanced, because the horn is efficient at lows, but the mids may not be unless they are in turn horn loaded.
And folded horns with good performance DO tend to be bigger.....I don't see this as a "myth", really. You can do some compensation for bad effects with the "box" the driver is in, but for very low frequencies, the horn generally needs to be relatively large in order to get the benefits of the horn loading. ("Voice of the Theatre" cabinets notwithstanding).
billfitzmaurice
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The baffle step frequency of a horn is the same as that of a direct radiator where the baffle and mouth are the same size. So a horn with a 24 inch square mouth will be no more directional than a typical 4x10, and that's at the lower end of the bandwidth. At the upper end, where a direct radiator will beam, a horn can be configured to have wider dispersion than direct radiators.
Not if the horn is properly configured. Most aren't. Mine are, except for subwoofers, which I intentionally have roll off quickly above the pass band for 1/5 the THD of direct radiating subs.
My DR250 is about the same size as a 4x10. It also has about the same performance as a 4x10, even though it's loaded with only one ten. The downside is the construction complexity.
Ric5
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"Throw" and the sound wave theories are viable if you can find a way to defy the laws of Physics! Listen to Jimmy - He is wise or at least has learned to listen to those more knowledgeable than yourself.
Ok now; Folded horn - I have two acoustics and cried when Acoustic did not remake! If I add one more I could knock the plaster off the ceiling!
if i were wise i wouldn't play music for a living i just listened to those who knew more than me.
i just listened to those who knew more than me.
if i were wise i wouldn't play music for a living
JimmyM: I just looked up "wisdom" in the dictionary. Here's what it said: "James Brown with a Devo hat"
I never said that. I do not understand why you need to keep attributing quotes to me that I did not say.
For a given volume 20 feet from the band, my folded horn subs are not as loud 3 feet from cab as my direct-radiating subs are when they are producing the same SPL at 20 feet away. I call this "throw."
From Bill himself:
"In the case of the folded horn the level will be on the order of 6 to 12dB louder than with the same amount of power into a direct radiator, so to the layman it would seem that the horn throws further. "
So to improve the use of correct semantics - what SHOULD this be called instead of "throw?"
"In the case of the folded horn the level will be on the order of 6 to 12dB louder than with the same amount of power into a direct radiator, so to the layman it would seem that the horn throws further. "
So to improve the use of correct semantics - what SHOULD this be called instead of "throw?"
A lot of this thread seems to revolve around the way low frequencies work, even though they are properties of subs and not just folded horns. The need to put a folded horn against a wall, or not hearing a folded horn near it's source, are all bass response related and true of every subwoofer. The difference is that direct radiators also have harmonic distortion to fill up the high and easier to hear frequencies. This makes them seem louder (distortion seems louder) and not as susceptible to cancellations.
When my direct radiator is in the wrong spot in a room, I can hear some notes sound thin and bottomless. Then I move it a little and low D is suddenly huge and full.
When my direct radiator is in the wrong spot in a room, I can hear some notes sound thin and bottomless. Then I move it a little and low D is suddenly huge and full.
Another reason that folded horns are not currently as popular, is the aforementioned distortion.
Direct radiators produce a bunch of harmonic distortion, and popular brands add overtones in a way that many people like. On the other hand, horns have extremely low distortion and high efficiency, which makes them vastly superior from an engineering standpoint, but provides a different tone than the ones that many players are used to.
The technical advantages of folded horns are fascinating to engineers, and are very interesting to players that are looking for a different sound than the average.
But those characteristics are of little use to someone who doesn't want what they offer. If I like "dirty" better than "clean", then lower distortion levels are of little interest. If I have a 500 watt amp that weighs about the same as a large paperback, then the fact that a horn can be driven louder with 50 watts than a direct radiator can with 200 watts, is equally irrelevant.
In that case, other considerations are more important:
- which box tickles my ears?
- which box is lightest, and fits in the trunk of my car?
- which box will impress my friends/my audience/my boss?
This is a perfect example of a situation in which engineering terms that define "less" or "more", or "good" or "better", can sometimes lose meaning in a musical context.
Direct radiators produce a bunch of harmonic distortion, and popular brands add overtones in a way that many people like. On the other hand, horns have extremely low distortion and high efficiency, which makes them vastly superior from an engineering standpoint, but provides a different tone than the ones that many players are used to.
The technical advantages of folded horns are fascinating to engineers, and are very interesting to players that are looking for a different sound than the average.
But those characteristics are of little use to someone who doesn't want what they offer. If I like "dirty" better than "clean", then lower distortion levels are of little interest. If I have a 500 watt amp that weighs about the same as a large paperback, then the fact that a horn can be driven louder with 50 watts than a direct radiator can with 200 watts, is equally irrelevant.
In that case, other considerations are more important:
- which box tickles my ears?
- which box is lightest, and fits in the trunk of my car?
- which box will impress my friends/my audience/my boss?
This is a perfect example of a situation in which engineering terms that define "less" or "more", or "good" or "better", can sometimes lose meaning in a musical context.
I had a folded horn Ampeg for a little while. It sounded awesome, but it was such a pain in the ass to move that I ended up selling it at a loss just to get rid of it.
billfitzmaurice
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Read my thread again. You don't yet grasp what it means.
Yes, they are, at least in the low frequencies where subs are supposed to operate. What you're hearing close to the direct radiators is harmonic distortion above the subwoofer passband. You don't hear that with the folded horns as they have much lower harmonic distortion.
...and also, funny enough, makes them sound quieter. Our ear hears that distortion as "loud".
