What is really separating all these jazz basses?

[Soul Power]

I originally wanted to get a fodera with custom this and that and exotic this and that after I first found out there was more in the bass world than your typical GC bass's but when I finally got to play one (victor wooten's) it wasn't the absolute beauty of the instrument that became the driving influence in getting my own it was how amazingly comfortable the neck was, it was just perfect in EVERY way.
Fast forward to last Christmas when my dad got me a fodera N.Y.C empire without me even asking for it, and I no longer feel the need to drop thousands of dollars on a flamed redwood imperial II (though I may, if I ever have the cash to spare, which will be years after I even get a degree..). Even though it's a five string, it's more comfortable than any four banger I've ever had my hands on, but after playing it for this long I've found that I always end up playing it passive. The whole sizzly marcus miller sound is cool, but it's not very flexible, and just isn't my thing.

So overall, I would say comfortability of the neck is the main thing that gets me. Sure, I would love to have a custom fodera with a beautiful exotic top, but the only real reason for that is because of aesthetics and the fact that there would be no other piece of wood in the world exactly like it.
If fender made a bass EXACTLY and I mean EXACTLY the same as my empire but for less I would've gotten that instead (if I asked for a bass during that christmas).

 

[Spectrum]

spectrum - we have to understand WHY is there a markup. there is a markup for specific reason between a $300 squier and a $1200 fender and we know why. active vs. passive. where it was manufacturer due to cheaper labor costs in asia. etc. people believe that an active bass in america is worth $900 more than a passive asian bass. thats how the price is set. supply and demand like you said. but something sets them apart, the labor costs. you can sell the asian one cheaper because of the labor costs. if people thought that asian passive basses were worth as much as the USA fenders than they would be the same price, the asian prices would go up and the USA fenders would go down in price until they had an equalibrium.

the more expensive basses have the extra features and those features cost more money. but i think you would agree with me that if we had all the makers make a jazz bass with the same specs they wouldnt cost the same amount. and we think this is due largely to brand name/value at this point. the mass produced ones from asia would be cheaper due to cheaper labor. the sadowsky and fodera would be more expensive due to USA labor cost and hand made.

but what would be the difference between all of them?

Like I said, much of it is in the minds of the buyers. We know what the differences are; you even mentioned some. Labor, brand name, etc. Even if all basses are built to the same specs and are physically identical, there will be people willing to pay for the one that has their favorited brand name on it.

So there's a lot of subjectivity involved, as with anything where people are free to choose on a whim.

As for buying aftermarket parts and installing them on a cheap bass, a lot of people don't want to be hassled with that, so they pay more for a ready-to-run instrument. They are a huge part of the market and the manufacturers pay attention to them.

 

[iPie]

just another opinion I'd like to add

When buying a bass I think the most important thing is playability, comfort etc, which has a lot to do with woods and craftsmanship.

Yes it is nice to have lovely pickups out of the box, but you can easily replace them. When you get into replacing bodies and necks, why not just buy a nicer bass?

If your bass doesn't sound nice, replace the pickups, if it doesn't feel nice, then you're really looking at getting a new bass.

Sorry that was an awfully laid out argument, I'm tired from band practice

 

[jnevi9nr]

A few things come to mind...

1) Build quality - One company may have a higher standard for what passes their QA and what doesn't. This would include attention to details such as how much effort they put into making sure the frets are well dressed and how well the intonation lines up.

2) Design - Sort of related to build, but in this case I'm talking about overall balance, ergonomics, weight, tuning stability, and playability.

3) Marketing - The more marketing they do the more it costs them to keep their doors open, and the way to recover that loss is to charge more for their instruments. The benefit to them being that the more marketing they do the more likely we will begin to buy whatever hype they're pushing (iPhones anyone?)

4) Traditionalism - We've been force fed that simply because they've been around forever brands like Fender and Ampeg are the best no matter what. While it is true we are used to the sound of these items, it doesn't necessarily mean they are the best for what we are trying to do. I like both, but I tend to feel that they are a little over priced when comparing features to features and in some cases tone to tone, depending on your application and what you want to accomplish musically speaking.

5) Elitism - Yes it's sad to say it, but some people look for gear simply to impress other players with their self perceived status symbols. "You may have a Benz but I got a Bentley!" attitude. Truth be told, I have heard expensive gear sound like crap, and cheap junk, sound amazing. Don't get me wrong, I love having nice gear, but there will always be more expensive and shinier stuff out there.

To me the bottom line is quite simple:
1) Does it sound good to you?
2) Does it look good to you?
3) Are you actually using/playing it?

And the most important of all....

Does it make YOU happy?


So my advice is to just smile and be proud to rock what you've got. You will be far happier in the long run.

so is there a metric to measure build quality and is it a well known fact which ones are hte best built?

design is personal preference and certain designs shouldnt cost more than others.

marketing - agree on that, but i think the iphone example isnt good. people arent buying it because of marketing. they are buying it because of good reviews and work of mouth. you dont sell 10 million of something because of marketing. you sell it because its the best.

traditionalism - i like your comments on this. i dont agree with comparing the cost of different tones, which is subjective. but i do like that you think that fender is "a little over priced when comparing features to features". but I am surprised by this as well. compared to what, ibanez? if so, great point and i would chalk that up to brand value.

Elitism - mentioned before as snob appeal and i think its a great point. so basically the more expensive it is, the better it is. sad to think people think this.

last part:

To me the bottom line is quite simple:

1) Does it sound good to you? - most important and some sounds cost more than others, but there are cheaper ways to get that sound than people realize and want to get at.

2) Does it look good to you? - this means ABSOLUTELY nothing to me. it shouldnt affect price. all I care about it tone.

3) Are you actually using/playing it? i hope if you buy the bass with the sound you like that you play it.

And the most important of all....

Does it make YOU happy? hopefully that one bass makes each one of us happy.

 

[jnevi9nr]

Like I said, much of it is in the minds of the buyers. We know what the differences are; you even mentioned some. Labor, brand name, etc. Even if all basses are built to the same specs and are physically identical, there will be people willing to pay for the one that has their favorited brand name on it.

So there's a lot of subjectivity involved, as with anything where people are free to choose on a whim.

As for buying aftermarket parts and installing them on a cheap bass, a lot of people don't want to be hassled with that, so they pay more for a ready-to-run instrument. They are a huge part of the market and the manufacturers pay attention to them.

its too bad that our society has gotten lazy and pay for convenience more than they should? people are overpaying for things in this country and its going to lead to our downfall. look at our debt. we live beyond our means and its too bad.

 

[jnevi9nr]

just another opinion I'd like to add

When buying a bass I think the most important thing is playability, comfort etc, which has a lot to do with woods and craftsmanship.

Yes it is nice to have lovely pickups out of the box, but you can easily replace them. When you get into replacing bodies and necks, why not just buy a nicer bass?

If your bass doesn't sound nice, replace the pickups, if it doesn't feel nice, then you're really looking at getting a new bass.

Sorry that was an awfully laid out argument, I'm tired from band practice

i think comfort is important but it shouldnt impact the price. something isnt more expensive because its more comfortable, however the most comfortable one may happen to be expensive.

i dont know if playability has that much to do with woods, but maybe i am wrong. i am open to hearing others thoughts on it.

well, lets hope that you pick a bass based on the body, and maybe the neck. everything else can be replaced.

 

[Duplo42]

Good setup - I know numerous guitarists/bassists who took their budget guitars to pro repairman and it made drastic change. Fretjob, action setup, PU height etc

Good pickups are must, ofc. No philosophy there. Poor PUs, poor sound.

Stable woods - no fun in having warped necks etc

Then theres bunch of variables - Warwicks could be considered Jazz also, then. But the sound is sooo different then your average Fender Jazz.

 

[Infidelity]

right, so i can get a mike pope preamp and put it in my fender, done. $10,000 fodera bass' preamp into a $300 bass.

pickups? are there any pickups out there, like alembic that you cant get in the second hand market?

It will sound like but the playability is questionable..

 

[jnevi9nr]

I originally wanted to get a fodera with custom this and that and exotic this and that after I first found out there was more in the bass world than your typical GC bass's but when I finally got to play one (victor wooten's) it wasn't the absolute beauty of the instrument that became the driving influence in getting my own it was how amazingly comfortable the neck was, it was just perfect in EVERY way.
Fast forward to last Christmas when my dad got me a fodera N.Y.C empire without me even asking for it, and I no longer feel the need to drop thousands of dollars on a flamed redwood imperial II (though I may, if I ever have the cash to spare, which will be years after I even get a degree..). Even though it's a five string, it's more comfortable than any four banger I've ever had my hands on, but after playing it for this long I've found that I always end up playing it passive. The whole sizzly marcus miller sound is cool, but it's not very flexible, and just isn't my thing.

So overall, I would say comfortability of the neck is the main thing that gets me. Sure, I would love to have a custom fodera with a beautiful exotic top, but the only real reason for that is because of aesthetics and the fact that there would be no other piece of wood in the world exactly like it.
If fender made a bass EXACTLY and I mean EXACTLY the same as my empire but for less I would've gotten that instead (if I asked for a bass during that christmas).

good input

i think the comfortability of the neck is very important to playability, but i dont think the price of the bass is a by product of it.

i could care less of the beautiful exotic woods, but i understand that can be a weakness for some, as are beautiful women. dont get me wrong, fodera basses are beautiful, but i want a bass that sounds good, i dont care how it looks.

 

[Soul Power]

i think comfort is important but it shouldnt impact the price. something isnt more expensive because its more comfortable, however the most comfortable one may happen to be expensive.

i dont know if playability has that much to do with woods, but maybe i am wrong. i am open to hearing others thoughts on it.

well, lets hope that you pick a bass based on the body, and maybe the neck. everything else can be replaced.

All I know is that the warwick corvette standard I once had was the most uncomfortable thing I've ever played, because of the weight of the neck and the way that the wenge fretboard felt. So I no longer play bass's with wenge fretboards.

 

[jnevi9nr]

thanks for the conversation everyone. feel free to continue.

 

[Kwesi]

right, so different electronics that give it different sounds cost different amounts. thats what it comes down to. so some people feel that the best sound is in the electronics of a $10k fodera bass, while others like the sound of the $500 fender active bass.

It's not as simple as that. Just recently I played a up-and-coming custom builder's bass with all Sadowsky electronic yet it sounded BETTER than the large majority of actual Sadowskys that I've tried. Suppose, I just happened to be looking for that exact sound? If you put all the weight on the electronics then I could end up with either that bass or a Sadowsky and one would make me happy while the other wouldn't. You can drop the Fodera preamp and pickups into any other bass but I seriously doubt it'll sound just like a Fodera. Close? Maybe. Nail it? Highly unlikely. In the case of the Sadowsky vs. the small builder, you wouldn't be able to guess that the two even had the same guts.

if they have jazz style pickups, then i consider them a jazz bass. i dont care about where they put the jazz pickups, the body shape, all the other factors.

Well you'd be dead wrong. Sorry if that's a little blunt but that's just what I believe. To me a jazz bass has jazz style pickups in positions at least reminiscent of Fender 60s or 70s spacing. Play a Warwick Corvette next to a Fender American Standard and a Sadowsky Metro. Two will sound much more similar than the third.

 

[Spectrum]

its too bad that our society has gotten lazy and pay for convenience more than they should? people are overpaying for things in this country and its going to lead to our downfall. look at our debt. we live beyond our means and its too bad.

I think it's bit judgemental to rip on people who don't have the desire or confidence to mod a new bass the way you do.

Based on people's preferences for a musical instrument, you seem to have formed some broad generalizations about society which serve to confirm your initial beliefs. I don't think my statement about people's preference for off-the-shelf basses is really enough evidence for such a sweeping indictment, nor do I think it is relevant to the topic of the thread.

 

[Doctor Dirt]

As a part time pro bass player but long time player the cost and sound are not important compared to feel & fit. If the instrument doesn't have a comfortable feel in my hands then its not mine. Then the sound is considered then the finish. I couldn't care less about cost or if the instrument impressed a soul. My instruments are very personal to me and I care for them with caution and concern. I recently saw the "road worn" bass that Fender is offering, its a shame when a company that has lead the way for solid bodied guitars stoops to such a ploy or novelty that cheapens the product. I guess for some if you'll never play like Jaco you may as well look like him hahaha!!! just goofy. Doc

 

[Pilgrim]

What is separating all these jazz basses?

ALEMBIC, DINGWALL, F BASS, G&L, KEN SMITH, LAKLAND, MODULUS, MUSICMAN, Peavey, ROSCOE, Rickenbacker, SADOWSKY, SPECTOR, WARWICK

I'd say a comma and a space.

Wait, is this a trick question?

 

[M.R. Ogle]

Call it insurance.

If I'm a casual player on a budget, I'll sift through lower-end garden-variety Jazz basses to find one that feels and sounds good enough for me to comfortably play. Might take a few years to find a good one, though.

If I'm a working musician, I might opt for an American-made Jazz with certain features I've come to know and desire... choice of fretbioard woods, pickups and electronics. My livelihood depends on this tool being right and not limiting me in any way.

If I'm a internationally-renowned touring Pro, I want to ABSOLUTELY guarantee that my basses are the top of the top, with hand-picked woods, built to my very discerning ear and abilities, and cost is not a concern, the ultimate in craftsmanship, reliability and support IS the deal. So I contract to a high-end boutique builder for that level of "insurance".

 

[bottomzone]

If I ever decide to get a J-type bass-which I never considered until now-it will be a Carvin SB5000! Carvin has attracted a lot of attention from established pros and others not so established for good reason. Price, options and quality makes the SB4000/5000 very hard to beat!

A Groove is a Terrible Thing to Waste!

 

[JB36]

law of diminishing returns.

i dont really buy that theory in this case. i think it comes down to material and labor cost and brand name, as you mentioned. the more extras you add on, the higher the cost. certain woods are more expensive than others, which we established that fodera uses exotic woods that cost more than fender traditional woods.

fodera labor is more expensive than assembly line labor in asia. but the labor cost can be more at fodera than at sadowsky due to brand name and the cost they pay their employees because they know that due to their brand name and endorsement deals they can sell a bass for $10k. i am assuming that sadowsky and fodera can use the same materials and get them close to the same price.

You also have to factor in economies of scale. Sadowsky would not be sustainable selling basses at the same profit margin as Fender when it comes to the volume sold.

 

[DJ Bebop]

As a part time pro bass player but long time player the cost and sound are not important compared to feel & fit. If the instrument doesn't have a comfortable feel in my hands then its not mine. Then the sound is considered then the finish. I couldn't care less about cost or if the instrument impressed a soul. My instruments are very personal to me and I care for them with caution and concern. I recently saw the "road worn" bass that Fender is offering, its a shame when a company that has lead the way for solid bodied guitars stoops to such a ploy or novelty that cheapens the product. I guess for some if you'll never play like Jaco you may as well look like him hahaha!!! just goofy. Doc

For me too, feel is number 1. I don't care so much about name. Like as an example, the "road worn " business. I like the feel of that neck, I don't care if it's from mexico or, the north pole or, if it looked scuffed up or brand new. Now for me, if they put that neck on anything I would be happy.

 

[chuck norriss]

As someone who charges by the hour for his craft, I assume it's labor that drives the price up on the more expensive instruments. A three-hour inspection of a bass in NYC can be passed to the consumer for an additional $300 whereas a quick glance-over on an assembly line in Jakarta or Tianjin etc, $3.00.
Also, marketing is very expensive: if you're advertising in Guitar/Cigar Aficionado it will require
Page 4CB $12,000 $11,640 $11,300
1/2 Page * $8,400 $8,150 $7,900
Cove r 2 /Page 1 $30,000 $29,100 $28,300
Cove r 3 $14,400 $13,970 ---
Cove r 4 $15,600 $15,130 ---
1, 3, & 6 occurrences respectively. And I hardly believe a manufacturer won't consider that in its retail price.