What is really separating all these jazz basses?

[bassbenj]

All kind of stuff...

to a novice, a Squier Affinity will look just like a Sadowsky NYC - but there is no comparison between the two.

Especially when you look at the price!

One large difference between the two is that a Squier (or other mass produced Jazz bass) will be quite variable. There is doubtless a bunch of people at the plant pulling boards off a huge pile and making bass parts out of them. They have so many basses to get out a day and they can't be fussy about how they throw them together. I'm not saying they are doing a lazy or bad job, mind you, modern assembly techniques make pretty good basses even in the worst of conditions. But you can see that the quality of any given bass is simply a matter of luck. Of how the boards and parts came to the top of the pile and got used.

A bass like a Sadowsky on the other hand costs enough that each one can be carefully inspected and the parts carefully matched. No "random" parts here. You get Roger's vision of how each bass should go together. And you PAY for that. What do you expect? If you hire an expert to do ANYTHING for you, you are going to be laying out serious coin to take advantage of their specialized knowledge! And that goes for building a bass as it does for lawyers and doctors.

Of course, the catch is that just like monkeys typing on typewriters, there is a good change that a few of those Squier basses will be excellent. It's random, but they DO exist. I've actually seen them myself. There was a thread here about how if you check enough Squier basses, you will find one where the neck just happened to be exactly quarter-sawn. So do you want to search the world looking for that "special" squier? Or pay Roger to guarantee that the bass has been optimized? Well, do you feel lucky? How much is your time worth? That's really what it comes down to.

 

[KingRazor]

lets start from the bottom up

brand name - agree with you. and its ashamed that its that way.

preamps - agree. i would argue that companies shouldnt sell their preamps and pickups separately, but are doing so due to market conditions. could be wrong.

location - its too bad that people think this. i certainly will not let that be a factor in my decision.

labor - lets use your example - Sadowsky vs. Fender Custom Shop. i mean, really is there a difference. would you (not you specifically) really knew if one of the builders from sadoswky went to fender and worked for them. would it really change the output of the bass if one of those that works at sadowsky went to work at fender? now maybe sadowsky vs. fender mass produced ones, we can make an argument there is a difference, but is the bass quality and sound really worth that kind of markup? does the bass really sound THAT much better? maybe.

materials - yes, the ones I wanted to discuss. so there we have it. fender doesnt use exotic woods like fodera or others. they choose not to because they must feel that the exotic woods dont enhance the sound to justify the cost OR their business model is for low cost, mass produced basses and therefore, cant justify using exotic woods. so maybe we should break out this discussion into exotic woods vs. your typical ash, alder wood basses. lets do that first.

what is really separating the ash and alder bass makers from each other?

because if you say that fodera is using an exotic wood that fender doesnt use and therefore that exotic wood is the reason the price is so expensive and the sound is better, etc., than that solves that part of the equation.

Actually, I was saying Sadowsky/Fender CS vs Chinese/Indonesian mass-produced basses.

I know MIA Fenders are nice. Every one I've played has been nice. But then, so are most Indonesian-made Ibanez Soundgear basses.

 

[jnevi9nr]

I'll use my Nash Jazz as an example. It's the little things that add up. If I play unplugged, my Nash sounds better than my Fender Jazz. I believe it's the nitro finish, but there could be other variables. He cuts a nut perfectly, angled down toward the posts. Plus the nut depth is spot on. (I play fretless). The neck is fast as lightning. The next point is not a little thing, but the best thing about the bass is the Lollar pups. They suit my style perfectly, not to mention the band gets a big smile on their faces when I pull the Nash out of its case. As a side note, with a light relic, it doesn't bother me a bit to hit a cymbal with the headstock, or feel a button from my shirt hit the back of the body.

ok, quick question:

so the nitro finish allows the bass to sound better unplugged than a bass without nitro finish to you? but was this one of the factors that lead you to buy the bass?

the nut - i believe that this can be adjusted for any bass, but I may be wrong. i also would argue that this isnt a key factor in purchasing decisions, but maybe i am wrong.

the neck is fast. I hear that a lot. what does that mean? is it the materials? the angle? this could be a huge factor in what separates jazz basses, so lets try to understand what is it about the necks.

the pups - again, this is more about the electronics that I agree would be a factor, but we could put those in another jazz bass with the same features and get a close sound.

 

[Dbassmon]

Ya know... if you make a bass out of ash or alder, put single coil Jazz p-ups in the 60's or 70's position, make your neck out of maple with rosewood or maple finger board, it's gonna sound like a jazz bass.

Nitro, Poly, Dimarzio, Duncan.. all that stuff can't make it sound like anything other that a Jazz., change it subtly? yes! but not the essence.

Add some exhibition tops, some fancy electronics and somebody's expensive brand name, now you have an expensive jazz bass... still a Jazz. The "is it worth it?" part is up to you.

A lot of wonderful recordings made on stock Jazz basses. Learning to really play well makes every bass sound like a million bucks.

 

[jnevi9nr]

Actually, I was saying Sadowsky/Fender CS vs Chinese/Indonesian mass-produced basses.

I know MIA Fenders are nice. Every one I've played has been nice. But then, so are most Indonesian-made Ibanez Soundgear basses.

oh ok, my fault. i agree that the basses built by hand may be slightly built better, but i also think that the sound and how it plays wouldnt change that much. could be wrong here.

but I also like your point about the location. i really dont think that plays as big as a factor as people around here think it does.

i would LOVE to do some scientific blind tests with 100 random people on TB and really prove some points with this. it would be a GAME CHANGER for sure.

 

[jnevi9nr]

Ya know... if make a bass out of ash or alder, put single coil Jazz p-ups in the 60's or 70's position, make your neck out of maple with rosewood or maple finger board, it's gonna sound like a jazz bass.

Nitro, Poly, Dimarzio, Duncan.. all that stuff can't make it sound like anything other that a Jazz., change it subtly? yes! but not the essence.

Add some exhibition tops, some fancy electronics and somebody expensive brand name, now you have an expensive jazz bass... still a Jazz. The "is it worth it?" part is up to you.

A lot of wonderful recordings made on stock Jazz bass. Learning to really play well makes every bass sound like a million bucks.

i dont want to say "sound like a jazz bass". i am saying if each company built their basses to the same specs, they would charge different amounts and i would want to know what really separates them - brand name as you mention?

everyone seems to have a jazz bass, so I used that as an example.

i agree with your other parts, so you would argue (and me as well, but I dont want to say it yet) that people are paying for the electronics and exotic woods, but its still a jazz bass, because they like that specific sound from a specific preamp, PU and expensive wood combo. wow, I am glad I dont feel that my sound has exotic woods and expensive preamps and PUs.

 

[iPie]

IMO the higher in price, the less difference in quality there is. for example

a £200 bass is likely to be a hell of a lot better than a £100 bass, but a £1200 bass is barely going to beat a £1100 bass.

Of course this isnt a hard and fast rule, but more of a general trend, as you go up in price, each £ makes less and less difference.

Thats without figuring in brand names...

 

[KingRazor]

IMO the higher in price, the less difference in quality there is. for example

a £200 bass is likely to be a hell of a lot better than a £100 bass, but a £1200 bass is barely going to beat a £1100 bass.

Of course this isnt a hard and fast rule, but more of a general trend, as you go up in price, each £ makes less and less difference.

Thats without figuring in brand names...

Or $...

 

[jnevi9nr]

Especially when you look at the price!

One large difference between the two is that a Squier (or other mass produced Jazz bass) will be quite variable. There is doubtless a bunch of people at the plant pulling boards off a huge pile and making bass parts out of them. They have so many basses to get out a day and they can't be fussy about how they throw them together. I'm not saying they are doing a lazy or bad job, mind you, modern assembly techniques make pretty good basses even in the worst of conditions. But you can see that the quality of any given bass is simply a matter of luck. Of how the boards and parts came to the top of the pile and got used.

A bass like a Sadowsky on the other hand costs enough that each one can be carefully inspected and the parts carefully matched. No "random" parts here. You get Roger's vision of how each bass should go together. And you PAY for that. What do you expect? If you hire an expert to do ANYTHING for you, you are going to be laying out serious coin to take advantage of their specialized knowledge! And that goes for building a bass as it does for lawyers and doctors.

Of course, the catch is that just like monkeys typing on typewriters, there is a good change that a few of those Squier basses will be excellent. It's random, but they DO exist. I've actually seen them myself. There was a thread here about how if you check enough Squier basses, you will find one where the neck just happened to be exactly quarter-sawn. So do you want to search the world looking for that "special" squier? Or pay Roger to guarantee that the bass has been optimized? Well, do you feel lucky? How much is your time worth? That's really what it comes down to.

ok, so you are arguing that the expertise of the wood builder to pick a specific wood is worth the increase cost because the sound/feel will be A LOT better?

i would argue that the wood builder and mass produced assembly line worker is picking from the same stack of wood. they prolly go to the same place to get their wood. the only difference is that the assembly line worker is picking two random pieces of wood and the sadowsky person is going through to find the perfect wood for your bass based on his expertise.

so your last point is that randomly there will be squiers built to a custom fender level, or to sadowsky level as you put it. so i could hunt around looking at 10, 20, maybe 50 different $300 squier basses or I could pay $2000 for a sadowsky. im not really sold on roger adding that kind of value by himself picking out the exact wood to use for an exact bass every time. i dont think it would add that much to the sound and quality of the bass.

 

[catfishplatter]

WOW, a lot of opinion's on here so Ill give mind, Every bass I have owned from a Ariea Pro to fender jazz and so on.. I have always had to have something done, to be the way I like. pickups, bridges , tuners...something....But let me say this....You can buy expenesive bass like fodera and it would be like buying a Lamborghini,,right? well then I will say that my Fender jazz is like a Toyota..keeps on working with 300,000 miles....i dont think youll ever get that from a Lamborghini!!!!!!

 

[jnevi9nr]

WOW, a lot of opinion's on here so Ill give mind, Every bass I have owned from a Ariea Pro to fender jazz and so on.. I have always had to have something done, to be the way I like. pickups, bridges , tuners...something....But let me say this....You can buy expenesive bass like fodera and it would be like buying a Lamborghini,,right? well then I will say that my Fender jazz is like a Toyota..keeps on working with 300,000 miles....i dont think youll ever get that from a Lamborghini!!!!!!

why not buy a $300 fender, and add the pickups you want, the preamp you want, the bridge you want, the tuner you want all for about $500 or so. maybe $800 if you are picky and need install help. still cheaper than a MIA fender.

it sounds like from this thread that people are buying foderas because they like the sound of exotic wood (which happens to be expensive), fodera pickups, and fodera preamp.

you can buy the preamp and install it in a $500 active fender bass. thank goodness i dont love the sound of exotic wood. ill take ash or alder wood.

 

[Hifiguy]

i believe you actually can buy the alembic pickups after market. they are expensive, but cheaper than a whole bass. so really i am hearing a lot of "electronics and pickups" and not a lot about what separates the actual basses, which I thought would be the case.

Yup. You can buy J-set, P, or PJ Alembic pickups from Alembic. As noted by others, there are NO other pickups that sound like Alembic pickups. And among other bass makers only Wal offers electronics that incorporate active filters rather than boost/cut controls. Alembic pickups have a sound that is like no other.

 

[jnevi9nr]

IMO the higher in price, the less difference in quality there is. for example

a £200 bass is likely to be a hell of a lot better than a £100 bass, but a £1200 bass is barely going to beat a £1100 bass.

Of course this isnt a hard and fast rule, but more of a general trend, as you go up in price, each £ makes less and less difference.

Thats without figuring in brand names...

law of diminishing returns.

i dont really buy that theory in this case. i think it comes down to material and labor cost and brand name, as you mentioned. the more extras you add on, the higher the cost. certain woods are more expensive than others, which we established that fodera uses exotic woods that cost more than fender traditional woods.

fodera labor is more expensive than assembly line labor in asia. but the labor cost can be more at fodera than at sadowsky due to brand name and the cost they pay their employees because they know that due to their brand name and endorsement deals they can sell a bass for $10k. i am assuming that sadowsky and fodera can use the same materials and get them close to the same price.

 

[Hifiguy]

why not buy a $300 fender, and add the pickups you want, the preamp you want, the bridge you want, the tuner you want all for about $500 or so. maybe $800 if you are picky and need install help. still cheaper than a MIA fender.

***

you can buy the preamp and install it in a $500 active fender bass. thank goodness i dont love the sound of exotic wood. ill take ash or alder wood.

That is just what I did with the FOJ Jazz bass I bought 15 years ago for $300 - see my sigline. It was already a good-sounding bass, now it is a GREAT sounding bass and the best J I have owned out of the six I've had. Collector value is zilch, but it's a great player's Jazz.

 

[Spectrum]

Don't confuse "price" with "worth". A bass is worth whatever a buyer is willing to pay for it, whatever his reasoning is. The price reflects the law of supply and demand.

If you don't think a $1200 Fender is worth more than a $200 Squier, than to you it is only worth $200 and you should go buy the Squier. But as long as enough people are willing to fork over the larger sum to justify continued production, than Fender will sell $1200 basses. The reason people think they are worth it varies from customer to customer. Some like the sound, others like the fit and finish, and some care about location and name brand reputation. Others like the fact that the more expensive bass doesn't need to have all the features installed after the fact, but instead is ready to play right off the shelf.

It's just simple economics, is all. The fact that there are so many Jazz copies out there at verious price levels is a good thing, you can do get whatever you are willing to pay and can mod it to your heart's content.

 

[Raymeous]

A few things come to mind...

1) Build quality - One company may have a higher standard for what passes their QA and what doesn't. This would include attention to details such as how much effort they put into making sure the frets are well dressed and how well the intonation lines up.

2) Design - Sort of related to build, but in this case I'm talking about overall balance, ergonomics, weight, tuning stability, and playability.

3) Marketing - The more marketing they do the more it costs them to keep their doors open, and the way to recover that loss is to charge more for their instruments. The benefit to them being that the more marketing they do the more likely we will begin to buy whatever hype they're pushing (iPhones anyone?)

4) Traditionalism - We've been force fed that simply because they've been around forever brands like Fender and Ampeg are the best no matter what. While it is true we are used to the sound of these items, it doesn't necessarily mean they are the best for what we are trying to do. I like both, but I tend to feel that they are a little over priced when comparing features to features and in some cases tone to tone, depending on your application and what you want to accomplish musically speaking.

5) Elitism - Yes it's sad to say it, but some people look for gear simply to impress other players with their self perceived status symbols. "You may have a Benz but I got a Bentley!" attitude. Truth be told, I have heard expensive gear sound like crap, and cheap junk, sound amazing. Don't get me wrong, I love having nice gear, but there will always be more expensive and shinier stuff out there.

To me the bottom line is quite simple:
1) Does it sound good to you?
2) Does it look good to you?
3) Are you actually using/playing it?

And the most important of all....

Does it make YOU happy?


So my advice is to just smile and be proud to rock what you've got. You will be far happier in the long run.

 

[jnevi9nr]

Yup. You can buy J-set, P, or PJ Alembic pickups from Alembic. As noted by others, there are NO other pickups that sound like Alembic pickups. And among other bass makers only Wal offers electronics that incorporate active filters rather than boost/cut controls. Alembic pickups have a sound that is like no other.

see, these are really what separates jazz basses, thanks hifiguy. but again, i can buy alembic pickups (i think they are like $1000) and put them in a $500 bass, and then boom, I got an alembic sound. expensive sound, but its a particular sound that costs more than a traditional sound, just like the exotic woods.

also, actually there is another bass maker that uses filter preamps, ACG out of England I believe. here is another example of something unique that cant be copied or isnt. but that unique costs extra and if you think that your sound is better because of it (like exotic woods), its going to cost you. but I dont need an expensive bass if the preamp is available second hand. i can put it in a $300 used G&L tribute.

 

[Kwesi]

Coming from someone who's played both $200 Squiers and $4000 Alleva-Coppollo's, not a whole lot in the tone department, those of course, the the aesthetics arena things can vary wildly. BUT, when you are really looking for a good jazz bass it's those small differences that count. Most Fender jazz basses sound incredibly similar (from what I've played) but they sound quite different from, say, a Brubaker. To me, those difference aren't subtle but they aren't massive either. It's been said a million and one times now but a basses worth from one person to the next can change drastically and if you want a jazz that sounds like a JXB you won't be as happy with the Fender.

Also, last I checked neither Alembic, Musicman, Peavey, Rickenbacker nor Warwick actually have and jazz bass models. Yes, some of them have jazz style pickups but they don't sound like jazz basses. At least, not close enough for my tastes.

 

[jnevi9nr]

Don't confuse "price" with "worth". A bass is worth whatever a buyer is willing to pay for it, whatever his reasoning is. The price reflects the law of supply and demand.

If you don't think a $1200 Fender is worth more than a $200 Squier, than to you it is only worth $300 and you should go buy the Squier. But as long as enough people are willing to fork over the larger sum to justify continued production, than Fender will sell $1200 basses. The reason people think they are worth it varies from customer to customer. Some like the sound, others like the fit and finish, and some care about location and name brand reputation. Others like the fact that the more expensive bass doesn't need to have all the features installed after the fact, but instead is ready to play right off the shelf.

It's just simple economics, is all. The fact that there are so many Jazz copies out there at verious price levels is a good thing, you can do get whatever you are willing to pay and can mod it to your heart's content.

spectrum - we have to understand WHY is there a markup. there is a markup for specific reason between a $300 squier and a $1200 fender and we know why. active vs. passive. where it was manufacturer due to cheaper labor costs in asia. etc. people believe that an active bass in america is worth $900 more than a passive asian bass. thats how the price is set. supply and demand like you said. but something sets them apart, the labor costs. you can sell the asian one cheaper because of the labor costs. if people thought that asian passive basses were worth as much as the USA fenders than they would be the same price, the asian prices would go up and the USA fenders would go down in price until they had an equalibrium.

the more expensive basses have the extra features and those features cost more money. but i think you would agree with me that if we had all the makers make a jazz bass with the same specs they wouldnt cost the same amount. and we think this is due largely to brand name/value at this point. the mass produced ones from asia would be cheaper due to cheaper labor. the sadowsky and fodera would be more expensive due to USA labor cost and hand made.

but what would be the difference between all of them?

 

[jnevi9nr]

Coming from someone who's played both $200 Squiers and $4000 Alleva-Coppollo's, not a whole lot in the tone department, those of course, the the aesthetics arena things can vary wildly. BUT, when you are really looking for a good jazz bass it's those small differences that count. Most Fender jazz basses sound incredibly similar (from what I've played) but they sound quite different from, say, a Brubaker. To me, those difference aren't subtle but they aren't massive either. It's been said a million and one times now but a basses worth from one person to the next can change drastically and if you want a jazz that sounds like a JXB you won't be as happy with the Fender.

Also, last I checked neither Alembic, Musicman, Peavey, Rickenbacker nor Warwick actually have and jazz bass models. Yes, some of them have jazz style pickups but they don't sound like jazz basses. At least, not close enough for my tastes.

right, so different electronics that give it different sounds cost different amounts. thats what it comes down to. so some people feel that the best sound is in the electronics of a $10k fodera bass, while others like the sound of the $500 fender active bass.

if they have jazz style pickups, then i consider them a jazz bass. i dont care about where they put the jazz pickups, the body shape, all the other factors. there was a thread i created that asked "what makes something a jazz bass" and you be surprised by the lack of a simple answer.