What is the deal with scooping mids

[poochiecheeks]

I've been struggling for about a year now to properly EQ the bass live to get it audible but not overstepping the other instruments. The band I'm in is all direct, electric kit and all, and eqd from our mixer/ipad setup. Looking at the EQ curves of each channel with the drummer, the kick drum is heavily boosted at ~80Hz, the two guitars are boosted at ~500Hz, with the vocals and other drums all over the place in terms of whats boosted or cut, but nothing as major as those two points. I have the bass on a flat channel for eqing myself, and I'll go out front with the wireless to listen briefly as I'm playing to what the band sounds like in the room. Not ideal but its the best I can do.

Now reading on TB here I have gathered that sticking out in a mix involves boosting the mids, so I've been boosting 400 and 1000 Hz like there's no tomorrow with only limited success. Things always sound indistinct, and I find I have to turn the bass send volume way up just to hear things out front, and its always a bit of a mess.

I have a Dicosimo GK 800RB pedal and Diamond compressor to a broughton cab sim DI, very simple. I thought to myself, maybe I should use the Contour button on the 800RB which notches at around 500hz, and the Lo Cut button which is a low shelf cut around 150-200Hz, then boost the bass slightly, boost low mids and treble(4k) to compensate. I tried this at a gig and wow- I can hear the kick drum, the low mid presence of the bass, the guitars, and a bit of the percussive attack of the bass- all at the same time without everything vomiting all over each other in the midrange. The bass is missing some high mid clank and the treble boost still clashes with the guitars some but its a stock Tbird so you can only do so much, I'm working on that. But for once there was this clarity to all the instruments that wasn't there before.

So what's the deal with scooping mids? Is it really such a bad thing to be doing live? Should I be trying to go under the kick in the sub bass frequencies or just stick to ~150 Hz through ~400Hz for the low frequencies? What kind of high mid frequencies would work well with two marshall-esque guitars on louder songs? It's an 80s pop/rock cover band so think all the stuff you'd hear on the radio. Didn't those guys in arena rock bands and the producers mixing them scoop the bass a lot of the time? Whats the best way to get feedback on the band mix when the BL is too cheap to hire anyone to do it and you and the drummer are the only ones who care what it sounds like out front? Should I just bring a sansamp, boost everything to 11 with the most obnoxiously aggressive bass I can find and just say F it?

 

[WayneP]

What bass guitar are you playing (make and model)?

What is the PA system (ditto)?

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

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[Wasnex]

Overly scooping the mids generally causes the bass to get lost in the mix. That's it in a nutshell. That does not necessarily mean you should not apply dip anywhere to the mids.

The term for fitting instruments into a mix by cutting a given frequency range with some instruments and a boosting the same frequency range in other instruments is called frequency slotting. The way you slot the mix will vary depending on the result you want. acoustic balance of the instruments, and room acoustics.

Indirect sound tends to bounce around for awhile and can build up. IMHO the build up tends to be especially problematic in the low mids. Why? AFAIK: In the low mids, the directional characteristic of speakers and mics is pretty weak, decay time can be excessive in the low mids, and there are a lot of sound sources contributing energy in this range (bass, drums, guitars, keys, vocals).

A big factor related to which frequencies build up the most is the dimensions of the room. Because room dimensions vary from room to room, acoustics vary from one gig site to the next. Therefore the way you slot the mix can vary from one venue to the next.

When you have build up at a certain frequency, about the only thing you can do is try to reduce how much energy you put into the room at the problem frequency. You might use EQ to apply narrow band or wide band dips depending on the nature of the problem. Or you may even turn down an instrument that is overly problematic.

The best solution for poor room acoustics is acoustic design and treatment. But acoustic design and treatment are generally beyond the control of the musicians and audio tech. Available tools including EQ, mic technique, system design, speaker placement/aiming, etc.

With all of these problems, it should be no surprise that the sound is often not as good as we would like. IMHO live sound is more about working out compromises in order to do the best you can, rather than being a purist trying to achieve perfection. Sometimes skill, knowledge, and good system design make a difference. But in really bad acoustic spaces, the sound is pretty much going to suck to some degree. With good compromises, perhaps it's possible to make it suck less.

 

[pepj]

Our stage mixes are always good. although in one band, the band is too loud.
That brings the first compromise right there but it still works and a phone video will cspture it well. We run kick and OH and vox over with 8" tops and a sub.
My other band is quieter even though 3 of us transfer over into it.
Again phone video captures this very well imv.
And when people comment on the sound, I generally think, yeah, thats a given, what about the rest of the gig.

But..I've got a few sub gigs and live video to work with...and frankly the video sound is awful..and these are engineered gigs..!!

So, long story short, you need every instrument sounding great at source. Then mixing is simpler because you are not eq'ing massively, you are mostly about level.

Start like this.
Drums solo..sound great?
add bass.
These two should not take up much of the spectrum.
Add keys.. remember keys are a colour istrument, they embellish, they do not carry the song typically.

Gtr is critical..if he is smart, he will have eq'd his sound out of the bass range...and again he is colour or dressing.
No bar chord charlies here required.
THIS IS THE DEAL BUT MOST GTRS NEVER EVER GET IT.
I'm going to have a wild stab and guess this is 99% your issue..the gtrs.

Had one gtr say his role was to drive the band and for most pop stuff..not metal, this is a reason to sack him because he will never play to make everyone else sound good.
Any player who puts their needs about the collective are not musically ready, typically.

So, its approach rather than specific sounds, imv

So yeah, boosting mids is not the golden bullet...you want to unclutter the sound not the opposite.

Finally...vocal level needs to be way up...unless the singer is dodgy and you'll bury them in the mix..but you have also buried your band sound too.

 

[mmon77]

Gtr is critical..if he is smart, he will have eq'd his sound out of the bass range...and again he is colour or dressing.
No bar chord charlies here required.
THIS IS THE DEAL BUT MOST GTRS NEVER EVER GET IT.
I'm going to have a wild stab and guess this is 99% your issue..the gtrs.

This.

It took a very long time for me as a guitarist to learn that the way a good guitar tone sounds when I'm solo vs with a band is vastly different. Learning to not stomp all over everyone in the mix is a rite of passage for any guitarist that plays live. Unfortunately, some never make it there.

 

[Iristone]

For Jazz Bass with both pickups maxed, especially through a Fender tone stack (e.g. Alembic, Sadowsky, Bartolini TCT) or contour control (GK, SWR enhancer, Ampeg Ultra Low), the tone is already mid-shy to begin with. Scooping out mids out of that combo will likely scoop out too much mids to be heard or sound good. Too much mids can certainly sound as bad as too little mids - you need a carefully dialed-in amount of good quality mids to sound good.

Gtr is critical..if he is smart, he will have eq'd his sound out of the bass range...and again he is colour or dressing.

Speaking of this - during one rehearsal I had to cut off both lows and low-mids on my amp, as both guitarists had too much boomy lows. When I play electric guitar (not that often) I tend to use the lightest strings possible - it helps with fingering and gives a clear, non-boomy tone.

 

[brianrost]

Poochiecheeks,

Boosting electric guitars at 500 Hz is part of what is killing you. As you noticed that GK “contour” is at the same frequency! It’s the guitars that should be gettng EQed. They should be high passed at 100Hz for starters (open low E on a guitar is about 80Hz fundamental) and need to wean themselves off the massive low mids the 500 Hz boost is providing.

I’d suggest during your next sound check to ask them to try removing that boost altogether and see if that helps with your bass in the mix. For 80s pop rock, upper mid boosts on the bass would be OK. Try sweeping a boost between 800Hz and 2KHz just to see what that sounds like.

I don’t think the 80Hz boost on the bass drum is that much of an issue, because the only thing being masked is the low fundamentals from your bass. It wouldn’t hurt to try a cut in the 200-600Hz range and see if that opens up any space for your bass.

 

[Mingo Sanders]

The audience cares about the vocals. They want to hear the singer singing the lyrics. Make the singer sound great. Make sure the instruments never get in the way of the singer and the lyrics.

I don’t make the rules.

 

[KidAmnesia]

The whole "cut through the mix" thing is the problem.

It asumes the mix is some sort of generic, overpowering white noise that covers the whole frequency spectrum at all times and can't be modified. In that scenario, yeah, boost your 1khz and you'll be able to hear yourself, whatever instrument you play. Problem is, in such contexts, everyone else will probably do the same and the result is white noise whith a mid bump.

But you can modify your mix. And you can talk with your bandmates to design that mix toghether if there's no one in charge of doing it. And that includes both eqing and also coordinating what you play and when so you are not stepping on each others "personal spaces".

I think you found the solution to your problem. The part of the spectrum you have free to occupy in your mix with your bass is the low mids below the guitars and above the kick drum, the higher mix is already taken by the guitars, snare, and most importantly, vocals. So scooping the bass to leave space for all that is probably the right thing to do. As well as the guitars should be mid scooped when the main focus are the vocals and push those mids back in when taking a lead.

 

[Chris Chong]

I had struggled with band sound when I gig. I always thought it was my fault that my bass drown in a band mix.

When I start learning to mix my own demos, I realise that the more important thing is to apply HPF (up to 120Hz) to every one except bass n drums. Cut their low mids (250hz) if they sound too muddy.

For my preference on bass, boost low (40Hz) and high mids (4kHz) to taste.

 

[SteveCS]

Now reading on TB here I have gathered that sticking out in a mix involves boosting the mids, so I've been boosting 400 and 1000 Hz like there's no tomorrow with only limited success. Things always sound indistinct, and I find I have to turn the bass send volume way up just to hear things out front, and its always a bit of a mess.

@Wasnex is on the money, as usual It is all about 'slotting', which is essentially creating unique sonic ranges on the spectrum for each 'voice' and, more importantly, making sure other things don't 'dump' all over the places already rightly occupied. Think about the kick drum - a few dB at the bottom and a few dB in a narrow band a few octaves higher to bring the 'thwack' and that's it. Even if you reduce everything else it will still sound like a kick drum. Cut that same high point a bit on every other channel and the 'thwack' will be right there in the room without having to over-boost on the kick channel. Vocals? You might think about running a spectral analyser against the raw vocals, then putting everything else throogh a sub-mix with the dominant character of the vocals reduced a bit (it doesn't take much) to make some space. Continue like this and your mix should end up balanced and open. There is nothing to be gained from just boosting 400 and 1k on the bass if several other 'voices' are already competing for that part of the spectrum. Find (or create) a space not already over-crowded and you will suddently appear loud and clear. Or claim it for your own and tell everyone else to get off your lawn!!

 

[Boneless]

It all depends. A scooped bass works best in heavy genres when it is supplementing the guitars in the low end (and you play lots of unisons with the rhythm guitar). That way the bass is providing the low end and clank up top, and you're leaving the mids to the vocals and the guitars (which will be scooped nominally, but will still be strong in the lower and higher mids). This will make the bass a bit indistinct, with little presence, but will fill the mix nicely. Again, it works when the bass is an extension of a very fat, aggressive rhythm guitar. But there aren't any rules really and it all depends on the band's mix and playing style.

FWIW, Black Sabbath had quite buzzy guitars and a very mid-forward overdriven bass (with little bass actually). That will leave room for the kick to actually cut through the mix.

 

[Razman]

This helped me a lot:

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[SuperTheBass]

There's a lot of awesome info in this thread. Thanks for sharing everyone!

 

[EricOnTheBass]

For my preference on bass, boost low (40Hz) and high mids (4kHz) to taste.

Just like a Sadowsky preamp.

 

[Fuzzbass]

The bass itself (including pickups, of course) can be a crucial factor. The split pickup in Precision-style basses is well known for its mid punch, and works much better with mid scoop than many other basses/pickups.

Many devices, especially bass-specific ones, have built-in mid scoop* because it can work so well. The Tech21 SansAmp Bass Driver has a fixed scoop, and has been ubiquitous in recording studios for three decades. To reference the previous paragraph I felt it worked much better with my P-style basses than my others.

*The mid scoop might be optional, engaged via a knob or switch, sometimes called "Contour". Another example is the Ampeg "Ultra Lo" setting which is a combination of mid scoop and low frequency boost. And the fixed scoop on the SansAmp BDDI can be mitigated by blending in dry (unaffected) signal.

This all goes to show that mid scoop is popular, and it's popular because it can work well. I've seen bassists get great tone when setting their graphic EQs to a hard "V" shape. Of course as mentioned many times scoop doesn't always help, and can even hurt.

 

[mambo4]

The main problem with "slotting" is that everyone must be on board

Many (beginner) Guitarists and bassists love to demand my tone, which they spent hours developing
alone in their bedroom, without band, or a venue sized room, or the actual material
and when it doesn't "cut" in a mix, the only solution they conceive is volume.

beginners also think of EQ as and additive endeavor: boosting desired frequencies
rather than subtractive : reducing what is not useful (and thus creating "slots" for others)
less is more as they say

And the hard sell is : a tone that slots nicely in a well crafted mix usually sounds unsatisfying in isolation
I loved my active EQ in the bedroom, and felt it was my tone.
until the batteries died and I was forced to play passive
That's when I noticed it sounded much better in the mix.

 

[dfp]

+1 to the opinion that boosting guitars at 400 is not ideal. Flatter, or shift the boost to a higher frequency might help if boost is really needed. And yes to High Passing the guitars. It’s almost always the guitars fault, isn’t it?

Cutting mids on the bass doesn’t have to be a drastic move, just a notch like your amp provides around 500 can be sufficient sometimes, sounds like you are on the right track with that and your Lo Cut.

 

[rtslinger]

I would say before you do anything with the EQ, you need to record your band and let the others hear the mix,
this way you can get them on board with make changes as well. I would not try to fix the mix by trying to fit the bass in guitars at 400 or 500 boost leaves no room for you to work this is boost in guitars is

• The "Cardboard" Zone:
  The 500 Hz area is often referred to as the "cardboard" or "boxy" zone because excessive frequencies in this range can make the guitar sound thick and congested.
• as for the kick drum A "good" kick drum frequency range for achieving a balanced and powerful sound typically falls between 40 and 100 Hz, with the sweet spot often around 60-80 Hz. However, the ideal frequency can vary depending on the specific sound you're aiming for and the overall mix.

These are the kick drum frequencies to look for:

• 25-50 Hz: Ultra-Low Bass Rumble.
• 50-80 Hz: Clearer Bass Notes.
• 80-200 Hz: Punch.
• 200-500 Hz: Boxiness and Muddiness.
• 600 Hz-1,2 kHz: Knocking Click.
• 1,2 kHz-6kHz: High Click.
• 60-80hz gives you remove for your bass in the mix

 

[poochiecheeks]

Bass is a 1991 Gibson Thunderbird, through the above mentioned setup, with two JBL 18"s and two JBL rear ported 15" top boxes.