What is the frequency of low E on a 4 string?

[agedhorse]

If there are bass players here who can't hear the fundamental of a low E string they are playing the wrong instrument. Incidentally I have run a frequency generator through an SVT head and cab when setting it up and I can hear the pure 40 cycle tone, yes it does drop off but it is there. Saying an Ampeg 8 x 10 cab can't reproduce a low E is one of the biggest myths perpetuated here on talk bass, also saying that you can't hear a 40 cycle tone is another huge myth.

Check this out and run it though your computer speakers, especially if you have decent speakers you should be able to reproduce the tones down to at least 40 cycles. If you have cheap speakers then try to differentiate the tone from the noise your speakers will generate.

Online Tone Generator - generate pure tones of any frequency

I didn't say that you couldn't here the fundamental, but that the fundamental is not the only tone present in bass guitar. At the lower end oft he scale, the fundamental can be less than 50% of the total signal, the remainder being comprised of harmonics of the fundamental. Combine this with the falling LF extension of the speaker and the harmonics can easily dominate (and in fact, it's what gives bass guitar it's distinctive and identifiable sound).

Also, if anybody tries using the tone generator and playing pure low frequency tone, beware of excursion limits of your speakers as it's quite easy to exceed these limits and damage your drivers.

 

[Kro]

With the exceptional full-range products you and other premier designers have given us these days, I'm not sure even those who could easily afford the price tag and be able to handle the size and weight would feel it to be a necessity. As much as I hate to admit it, bass rigs are becoming more and more for stage monitoring and small venues than for carrying the house at big shows. The largest indoor and outdoor events I've played have required virtually nothing from me other than a signal to the board - it's almost like being in the studio.

I think this is one big reason why I find the Subway line of products so useful. It's a compact system with a dynamite on- stage sound that includes a top notch DI. The sound techs then use their pro-audio, bi-amped, supercharged, whatever systems to create the sound for the audience. I mean if you're not mic'ing drums (especially the kick), then pushing insane bass doesn't make sense - you need to keep that balanced. If you are mic'ing the drums, then the systems will typically already have subs and mains and you won't need a huge bi-amped bass rig competing with that on stage.

I completely agree with this, but at the same time still love the sonic benefits that using my Fearless gives me the option to utilize should I need to. There is at least one medium-largish venue that I frequent that still likes for the bass rig to carry the room even though they have what I presume to be a top-notch sound system.

I could certainly design a killer biamped rig (real biamped, with an 18" and an 8" or 10" plus tweeter) using premium components that would be an improvement over even the Subways, Barefaced's, Greenboys etc, the size and cost would make it a pro only piece with very little real world sales. It's one of the frustrating factors when designing more oft he specialty products.

Would this supercab really have to be much bigger (guessing yes)?

In this day and age, I actually feel like portability would likely be a greater limiting factor than cost - I only say this because I see some willing to shell out extraordinary sums of money on gear. I'm legitimately curious though, what improvements would this supercab have over the current crop of supercabs? Would biamping be the key to the improvements, or would it be mostly a mix with other design elements - structure, and drivers, and whatnot...

Like I said, I'm super curious to hear your thoughts if you'd be willing to share a little bit more. I always find discussion around these types of ideas that are theoretically awesome, but completely infeasible due to market forces fascinating.

 

[ThisBass]

If there are bass players here who can't hear the fundamental of a low E string they are playing the wrong instrument. Incidentally I have run a frequency generator through an SVT head and cab when setting it up and I can hear the pure 40 cycle tone, yes it does drop off but it is there. Saying an Ampeg 8 x 10 cab can't reproduce a low E is one of the biggest myths perpetuated here on talk bass, also saying that you can't hear a 40 cycle tone is another huge myth.

Check this out and run it though your computer speakers, especially if you have decent speakers you should be able to reproduce the tones down to at least 40 cycles. If you have cheap speakers then try to differentiate the tone from the noise your speakers will generate.

Online Tone Generator - generate pure tones of any frequency

It's possible to let the 40Hz sine distort a little bit which than generates enough overtones which can be easily listened to. That's nothing new with MI tube amplification stuff.

 

[Al Kraft]

At the lower end oft he scale, the fundamental can be less than 50% of the total signal, the remainder being comprised of harmonics of the fundamental. Combine this with the falling LF extension of the speaker and the harmonics can easily dominate (and in fact, it's what gives bass guitar it's distinctive and identifiable sound).

I referred to this in an earlier post (from the lay person perspective) and it is something that came as a revelation to me many years ago when folks like agedhorse, Duke, and other designers were sharing details about the delicate balancing act between low end extension, efficiency, smoothness in voicing, power handling, etc. As I started to experiment with EQ in different frequency ranges, it became obvious that cabinets I associated with a full low end or a lot of low end punch were quite a few dB down by the time the root note showed up.

My big take-away from all that is that it's a lot less about specific frequencies associated with fundamentals and more about a balance across many factors. And it's that magic recipe that creates the voicing strengths we often assume are a root frequency, but which are really a harmonic/blend of harmonics with a less present root tone.

 

[Bubble]

I was going to link the online tone generator. I start loosing it at the upper 30hz, on my stereo with a sub.
The whole thing needs to be paired well. The 410 has much more cone area than a single 15". But if Xmax of the 15 is much farther than the 10's it can out wave them. What I am looking at is pairing the low priced 410's that usually go 45-50hz to 6khz-12khz, with a supplemental air pusher chest vibrator. I can afford it easier to buy the cabs as I can then bi-amp them later since I can't have it all at once anymore, got hurt in a lifting accident.
The problem is pairing them at the correct db and least crossover hum or dip. I was looking at that and started flapping to see what came up.

They don't spec the rolloff or even what db the low spec is. So that was my answer to pairing them. And yes I know an instrument amp is like an instrument, they have unique tones, just like a violin sounds like a violin, oboe like an oboe etc.

 

[agedhorse]

Would this supercab really have to be much bigger (guessing yes)?

In this day and age, I actually feel like portability would likely be a greater limiting factor than cost - I only say this because I see some willing to shell out extraordinary sums of money on gear. I'm legitimately curious though, what improvements would this supercab have over the current crop of supercabs? Would biamping be the key to the improvements, or would it be mostly a mix with other design elements - structure, and drivers, and whatnot...

Like I said, I'm super curious to hear your thoughts if you'd be willing to share a little bit more. I always find discussion around these types of ideas that are theoretically awesome, but completely infeasible due to market forces fascinating.

I can share some insight based on past "one-off" designs I have done for touring acts, most of it based heavily around pro audio solutions.

For the LF section, to get decent low frequency extension, along with good sensitivity and power handling it is necessary to look at what's being done at the smaller end of the touring level gear and how it's being accomplished. While in the past I have typically used JBL 2242's for the LF section, the size of the cabinet tends to grow to about 8CF or beyond for a single 18. Today, I would be tempted to look at something like an SRX-718S which has an F3 of 34Hz and an F10 of 31Hz while maintaining 95dB/1W/1M between 34Hz and about 250Hz, with a real world mechanical power handling capability of over 600 watts RMS. This is a lot tougher than you might imagine. The cabinet is 20" x 23" x 29" deep and weighs 80 lbs, but it's a heavy hitter. Of course there are other options, but this is an easy solution and not terribly expensive or heavy. If more low end is needed to keep up with the tops, an additional cabinet can be used which will increase raw sensitivity as well as shift the F3 and F10 down some.

For the HF section, I would look at some of the popular bass cabinets (such as the Genz Benz Ubers, the Subways, the Genzler Bass Array, and of course others) that have a voicing that compliments the player's personal tastes and music style. In fact, I did something like this with sealed SVT 810's for the HF section because the player really liked the voicing and how they sounded when used with overdriven signals. Crossed over at about 80Hz, 24dB/octave, LR alignment with attention paid to acoustic power summing through the crossover and acoustic gain matching between the low and high band.

So it's a combination of compromises and tradeoffs that drive this approach. How big, how heavy, how expensive, each player will have different thresholds.

 

[Bubble]

BTW, I don't like passive crossovers anymore. Line level crossovers can be affordably made at ultra low distortion levels then bi-amped. You can even get away with ceramic X7R caps and have .00X% and better distortion. Just as a joke some people will figure out where that passive crossover went. You might call this my cheapo scumbag route to a high power wide range bass system. It could end up as a FendPeg, PevKe, etc.

Maybe I can get by cheap with that Hartke 410XL, never seen or heard one but the specs look good. I hear mixed comments about that cracked cone problem, only a few and it's hard to say just how they did get cracked. And they could be an excuse to pass that Hartke crack cone and I don't care joke.

And above all, Bi-amping has nothing to do with my doodle dipping preferences. LOL Regular is fine with me.

 

[bobyoung53]

It's possible to let the 40Hz sine distort a little bit which than generates enough overtones which can be easily listened to. That's nothing new with MI tube amplification stuff.

Yes of course but that should not be necessary to hear it unless a person's hearing is seriously impaired or the speaker just can't go that low which is likely with computer speakers, the drop off on mine was remarkable, I had to turn the amp up the lower I went on the generator. I'm using a Pioneer tuner with some lousy tiny half blown KLH computer speakers, at 40 hz the noise generated by the speakers themselves was way louder than the tone but I could still hear it.

 

[bobyoung53]

I didn't say that you couldn't here the fundamental, but that the fundamental is not the only tone present in bass guitar. At the lower end oft he scale, the fundamental can be less than 50% of the total signal, the remainder being comprised of harmonics of the fundamental. Combine this with the falling LF extension of the speaker and the harmonics can easily dominate (and in fact, it's what gives bass guitar it's distinctive and identifiable sound).

Also, if anybody tries using the tone generator and playing pure low frequency tone, beware of excursion limits of your speakers as it's quite easy to exceed these limits and damage your drivers.

Oh i know you know you know what you're talking about, I didn't write that because of anything you said, I agree with you. Several people here have posted that it is almost impossible to hear a pure 40 hz signal and that is absolutely untrue unless your hearing is very impaired

 

[Bubble]

Earlier I mentioned not liking passive crossovers then had time to think, well that adds personality to a cabinet. And that personality is what makes an instrument. I do confuse instrument systems with stereos but then have to remember the instrument makes the sound, the stereo system reproduces it and should have no particular sound of it's own. Ever use a guitar or bass on a stereo amp ? They sound sort of empty to me.

That puts a value on a trademark sound.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Oh i know you know you know what you're talking about, I didn't write that because of anything you said, I agree with you. Several people here have posted that it is almost impossible to hear a pure 40 hz signal and that is absolutely untrue unless your hearing is very impaired

do the test with your rig. At the same output voltage compare sensitivity of the cab by ear. 40hz comes out at 1 mousepower compared to 80hz. Consider the relative loudness maintained if you were to crank the volumes. Then consider the excursions and accept that 40hz is not produceable at the level needed to hear it with the rest of your tone.

Not the same as saying 40hz is un hearable.

 

[bobyoung53]

do the test with your rig. At the same output voltage compare sensitivity of the cab by ear. 40hz comes out at 1 mousepower compared to 80hz. Consider the relative loudness maintained if you were to crank the volumes. Then consider the excursions and accept that 40hz is not produceable at the level needed to hear it with the rest of your tone.

Not the same as saying 40hz is un hearable.

Well no offense but I think you either need a new rig or to get your hearing checked. 40 hz drops off somewhat with an SVT from 50 hz but not all that much, the difference is noticeable but not enough to make it not loud enough to be usable with the rest of the tone as you say. I've used frequency generators with it to check the balance after I've retubed it and for the heck of it plugged it into my cab, my cabs are early 70's flatbacks but that shouldn't make any difference from later ones. Incidentally this same subject has been the the topic of MANY threads. If there were little or not fundamental in the low E in a bass amp it would sound very different from the higher notes, would sound like krap.

 

[agedhorse]

Well no offense but I think you either need a new rig or to get your hearing checked. 40 hz drops off somewhat with an SVT from 50 hz but not all that much, the difference is noticeable but not enough to make it not loud enough to be usable with the rest of the tone as you say. I've used frequency generators with it to check the balance after I've retubed it and for the heck of it plugged it into my cab, my cabs are early 70's flatbacks but that shouldn't make any difference from later ones. Incidentally this same subject has been the the topic of MANY threads. If there were little or not fundamental in the low E in a bass amp it would sound very different from the higher notes, would sound like krap.

This is what you would typically see from a sealed 810 (there are multiple variations, all sharing similar shape/profile curves). Note the LF rolloff is a second order function. While there is output at 40Hz, it's pretty far down BUT this is also one of the attractions of this type of cabinet. It tends to reproduce the "rock tones" well within t he context of that genre. Also, by allowing the rolloff, drivers can be used that sport higher sensitivity where it's most desired to achieve the rock voicing.

I'm not saying that it's not possible to design a sealed cabinet with better low frequency extension but you then loose the vibe that makes it so popular in the real world.

Using a signal generator, especially indoors or near multiple boundaries will lead to misleading measurements since the boundaries will generate peaks and valleys within the measurement area. This is really audio measurement engineering 101.

(typical sealed 810)

 

[Pbassmanca]

Great thread! It's like watching "Night of the living dead...."

 

[Bubble]

I remember the Fender 412 Bassman from the 70's. They make bass you feel not only hear. I dreamt of making a shaker, something like 10 square feet or so that makes a super feeling bass from like 30hz down. That would rock 'em good.

 

[Selta]

I remember the Fender 412 Bassman from the 70's. They make bass you feel not only hear. I dreamt of making a shaker, something like 10 square feet or so that makes a super feeling bass from like 30hz down. That would rock 'em good.

I just let FOH handle that part. No need for me to carry around an absurd rig, and the results are likely better.

 

[Downunderwonder]

This is what you would typically see from a sealed 810 (there are multiple variations, all sharing similar shape/profile curves). Note the LF rolloff is a second order function. While there is output at 40Hz, it's pretty far down BUT this is also one of the attractions of this type of cabinet. It tends to reproduce the "rock tones" well within t he context of that genre. Also, by allowing the rolloff, drivers can be used that sport higher sensitivity where it's most desired to achieve the rock voicing.

I'm not saying that it's not possible to design a sealed cabinet with better low frequency extension but you then loose the vibe that makes it so popular in the real world.

Using a signal generator, especially indoors or near multiple boundaries will lead to misleading measurements since the boundaries will generate peaks and valleys within the measurement area. This is really audio measurement engineering 101.

(typical sealed 810)
View attachment 1192754

12dB or thereabouts down at 40hz from 80hz.

GK users with five strings were routinely blowing up fridges with the 5 string button. I believe they would have been chasing more 60hz of low B to match the loud 80hz of low E.

 

[Drucifer]

There's a better table of frequencies here: [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[LSDilemma]

No time wasted when you learn bi-amping. I'm finding most of the power is used to make sound about 300hz and down. By the time you get up to 3khz and up, only 15 to 20% of the rms power is used by the tweeter. I'll have to find a power distribution chart to remember for sure, but I use a low crossover at 150 to 300hz for the smaller speakers (stereo at 300hz cause it's dainty). Those 410's will be much more reliable when you push the lows onto a 15" sub that can much easier handle it. At least on the lower priced stuff I see those how to replace a blown driver videos on YouTube.
I'm just starting into this officially on a bass amp, I have used that on stereos with great results.
It's a lot better than just trying to run both the 410 and 15 on one amp with no crossover.

Hello Mr. Bubble: I don't know if you still use this site, but you said that only 15 to 20% of an amps rms power is used by the tweeter in a bi-amp system. I have a 4x1000w mixer bi-amping two full-range yamaha IF 3115/95 speaker cabinets. The cabinets power rating is around 750w to lows and 250 to mid/highs. Do I need to turn down input gain on mid/high channels to protect the speaker? Or can I set them at unity and the power going to the lows and mid/highs will receive the correct power like you said?

 

[agedhorse]

You will need to set the LF/HF levels the balance the two sections. Typically the LF section will require more level.