What key are these pieces in?

[moley]

Originally posted by geshel


??? Where in the world do you pull this statement from? How could they not relate to musical intervals? You know where the (minor) 6th is because it's 8 semitones from the base note, which means the 8th fret. You seem to be implying somehow that you get from "E" to "C 8 semitones above it" without involving the number 8 at all. There's no way your brain can do that.

What I mean is, the fret number and the interval are not the same (2nd = major 2nd, 3rd = minor 3rd, I'll give you that ). But, 8th fret = minor 6th, 9th fret = major 6th etc. You're right, fret number does *relate* to the interval, in terms of the number of semitones. *But*, when you're playing a line, do you think "Oh, I'm gonna go up 8 semitones", or "Oh, I'm gonna go up a minor 6th"... ? The latter, I imagine.

What the hell do you mean "there's no way your brain can do that"? It's a minor 6th - does that involve the number 8? No!

To have a "what is this 'eighth fret' stuff?" attitude is only fooling yourself.

Bull****.

How else do you know where "there" is? I'm sure you're not looking. . .

Uh, you don't make no sense!! I know where there is, but I don't think of it as the "8th fret", I think of it as the position that gives you a minor 6th above the open string.

What the hell do you mean 'How else do you know where "there" is?' And no, when I play, I'm often not looking at the frets. Is this a bad thing?!?

 

[geshel]

Originally posted by moley


Uh, you don't make no sense!! I know where there is, but I don't think of it as the "8th fret", I think of it as the position that gives you a minor 6th above the open string.

What the hell do you mean 'How else do you know where "there" is?' And no, when I play, I'm often not looking at the frets. Is this a bad thing?!?

Well I guess we'll just have to disagree then. (I was not accusing you of looking at the frets or anything btw)

<- goes back to entering a transcription of "Driving Force" into PowerTab. . . .

 

[moley]

Originally posted by geshel


Well I guess we'll just have to disagree then. (I was not accusing you of looking at the frets or anything btw)

Heh, well I just don't really see the advantage of thinking of fret numbers over thinking of the intervals themselves.

BTW, I play fretless anyway, so really there are no frets to look at!

 

[Howard K]

Garrett,

Knowing what key this part is in probably wont help you play chords over it if you cant figure it out for yourself.

Some one provide the link to jazzbos article quick!!!!

I'm not one to get upset about pointless posts, but if you want to know what key it is, you need to learn hoe to identfy that yourself. Ideally get a teacher,. If you cant do that get a book, a video, a DVD, a CD, anything to help you learn.

It's a waste of yours and everyone else's time telling you what key your parts are in when you could work it out for yourself.

Basically, stop being lazy.

hope that's not to harsh for ya!
H

 

[Howard K]

BTW, I play fretless anyway, so really there are no frets to look at!

Do you play unlined?

If so, why?

I can never understand this - what's the point in removing a useful visual aid?!

 

[moley]

Originally posted by Howard K


Do you play unlined?

Yup!

If so, why?

I can never understand this - what's the point in removing a useful visual aid?!

It's not that I didn't want lines, it's just because that was the bass that was available, and it's unlined - beggar's can't be choosers! I bought it used from a friend of mine, who was the bass player in the big band I was in at the time.

I suppose I could have shopped around and found a lined one, but that's just the way it happened. I was thinking of getting a fretless, he mentioned he wanted to sell his old one - and bingo!

If I were buying a new bass, I'd look for a lined one - but it's not gonna be a requirement.

 

[Howard K]

Jees, I find unlined is such a pain in the ar$e. I had one for while and i just got so sick of my poor intonation I sold it again!

It had Thee muddiest tone you ever heard, so it was difficult to tell when it was on pitch anyway... truth be told my chromatic tuner even had trouble pitching it!

Then I played this SEI fretless at the Gallery recently, it was lined and it made it so much easier. I dont rely looking at the frets when playing fretted, but when I'm changing to fretless I want the lines there to make it instantly playable - rather than having to play the damned thing for 10 years before i can intonate properly!
Plus it had a great tone, really clear, which meant I could hear my poor intonation a lot easier... which aint always a good thing I s'pose?!

 

[moley]

Originally posted by Howard K
Jees, I find unlined is such a pain in the ar$e. I had one for while and i just got so sick of my poor intonation I sold it again!

It must have had dots on the side of the neck, right? At 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, etc.

It had Thee muddiest tone you ever heard, so it was difficult to tell when it was on pitch anyway... truth be told my chromatic tuner even had trouble pitching it!

Ouchee!

 

[Howard K]

oh yeah, it had dots on the fretboard too! on the thumb side up to the octave then on the palm side up to the body.
didnt make any difference, i was ok on the low notes - i.e. it was so muddy you just couldn't tell - all attack and no sustain.. but up about the octave it was hideous.
i spent hours sat there with a tuner trying to find where notes actually were, it was honestly night on impossible!

imagine my suprise (and releief!!!) when i picked up one in a shop an made it sound relatively good!!

 

[geshel]

Originally posted by moley
At 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, etc

*cough* what are those?

j/k

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by Infernal Affair
Personally I think where tab is strongest is that is shows EXACTLY how the person played a certain song, which can be good or bad. An *accurate* book can show you exactly what Flea or McCartney played. It's good when studying a player's personal style.

However this is not the case with most tab sites as they're just interpretations of what the tabber plays, not the original artist.

I'd rather just have the notation so that I can apply my own style of playing. And though occasionally when I get lazy to figure out a part by ear I'll look at a tab, assess if it sounds correct, then just modify it to my liking. Tab can be limiting as most new learners forget that the same note can be played on different parts of the board (ie open string D vs. fifth fret A).

Just my 2...


- Chris McDougall

Well to me, the most personal thing about a player's style is their rhythmic playing - how they introduce syncopation, grace notes etc - none of this is included in Tab and most books I have seen don't give any guarantee that this is "exactly" how a player played something - the only way you can do this is to see them play live or study videos if these are available.

 

[Howard K]

Well to me, the most personal thing about a player's style is their rhythmic playing - how they introduce syncopation, grace notes etc - none of this is included in Tab and most books I have seen don't give any guarantee that this is "exactly" how a player played something - the only way you can do this is to see them play live or study videos if these are available.

I think you both have a point here.

Bruce is always going to be right pitching for the side of standard notation - it has rhythm. Period.

However Chris McDougall also has a point. For example, MCartny played most of his lines around the middle of the neck on his hofner - simply because those basses are crap to play the closer you play to the nut or the body. So the feel of the notes would be different if played in first position. Standard notation is never going to show you this.

I feel I should also pont out that where Flea might play root octave with 1st and ring finger, you might play with 2nd and pinky to reach the next note... this will also change the feel - even the great tab doesnt include this!

However - any bass player worth his salt can hear where the notes are played on the neck and/or immitate the tone of a player using his fingers. Therefore standard notation is always the way to go for copying other peoples material.

Basically, what it comes down to - NOT in my opinion - as a HARD FACT - is that standard notation is far superiour to tab.

Anyone who argues otherwise is either misguided or ignorant.

If you cant read both, how do you know which is best? If you can and still prefer tab, then you're a snugglemuffin!

No offence intended Chris - this is in no way directed at you - i appreciate you were discussing the point

- I cant sight read, but I'm damn sure it's better than tab... what's the point in a memner of the rhythm section reading music WITHOUT rhythm?!

 

[The Mock Turtle Regulator]

Originally posted by geshel
I think the anti-tab backlash around here is a little too much.

yep.

this is tediously turning into yet another "tabs vs. standard notation" thread which has been done many, many times before.
yes, tabs are limited, you shouldn't rely on using tabs blah blah blah. we all know that.

my point is that people shouldn't get flamed for posting a tab of what they'd like explained-
note how the first three replies to the topic didn't object to the use of a tab.

everyone's got to start somewhere and a condescending attitude like Moley and Bruce present just puts people off learning theory.
or is this the "beginner bashing" forum?

 

[moley]

Originally posted by The Mock Turtle Regulator
everyone's got to start somewhere and a condescending attitude like Moley and Bruce present just puts people off learning theory.
or is this the "beginner bashing" forum?

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Originally posted by Howard K


However Chris McDougall also has a point. For example, MCartny played most of his lines around the middle of the neck on his hofner - simply because those basses are crap to play the closer you play to the nut or the body. So the feel of the notes would be different if played in first position. Standard notation is never going to show you this.

ACtually, you are wrong on this point (though I agree with much else you wrote). You can absolutely indicate what position you play in, which string you use, even which left hand finger to use, with standard notation. Or, to be pedantic, with extra indicators added to standard notation. Classical guitar music often does this, and you can do it with any stringed instrument if you like. You do have a to know a little more to get the info this way, as not every note is necessarily spelled out for you, but it can definitely be done--I've been doing it for years.

 

[Garrett Mireles]

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield


That's rubbish - how is it "a good deal better" - not at all!!

Well excuse me, but not all of us have perfect pitch, or semi-perfect pitch for that matter. So if we see "A B D A C D F#" we dont' know what the hell that sounds like, how do we know if A B D A is on the same string, or if it should be played on several different strings?

It could be:

A|-0--2--5--0--

Or it could be:

A|-----------------0--
E|-17--19------------
B|-----------15--------

And for the record, you CAN post note lenghts in a tab. Just have every - represent 16th note.

G|----------------|
D|----------------|
A|----------------|
E|----------------|

Or something like that, you get the idea. But if you already know what the song sounds like...why do you need to know the note lengths anyway..you're just playing it, not giving a sermon about it.

 

[Garrett Mireles]

Originally posted by The Mock Turtle Regulator

everyone's got to start somewhere and a condescending attitude like Moley and Bruce present just puts people off learning theory.
or is this the "beginner bashing" forum?

Glad I'm not the only one who's noticed this. I can guarantee you that if I post something wrong about music theory, whether I be one semi-tone off, Bruce is there to ride my a$$ about it. And it's not a "helpful suggestion", there's always sarcasm involved.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by The Mock Turtle Regulator


everyone's got to start somewhere and a condescending attitude like Moley and Bruce present just puts people off learning theory.
or is this the "beginner bashing" forum?

No, no - this is the just the "bashing those who say they're buying a Sadowsky, going to Berklee and then listen to my bass solo - although it has no notes" forum!!

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by Howard K


I think you both have a point here.

Bruce is always going to be right pitching for the side of standard notation - it has rhythm. Period.

However Chris McDougall also has a point. For example, MCartny played most of his lines around the middle of the neck on his hofner - simply because those basses are crap to play the closer you play to the nut or the body. So the feel of the notes would be different if played in first position. Standard notation is never going to show you this.

I feel I should also pont out that where Flea might play root octave with 1st and ring finger, you might play with 2nd and pinky to reach the next note... this will also change the feel - even the great tab doesnt include this!

However - any bass player worth his salt can hear where the notes are played on the neck and/or immitate the tone of a player using his fingers. Therefore standard notation is always the way to go for copying other peoples material.

Basically, what it comes down to - NOT in my opinion - as a HARD FACT - is that standard notation is far superiour to tab.

Anyone who argues otherwise is either misguided or ignorant.

If you cant read both, how do you know which is best? If you can and still prefer tab, then you're a snugglemuffin!

No offence intended Chris - this is in no way directed at you - i appreciate you were discussing the point

- I cant sight read, but I'm damn sure it's better than tab... what's the point in a memner of the rhythm section reading music WITHOUT rhythm?!

Well, as Richard pointed out there are better ways of doing this - but I think the main point is that the vast majority of Tab doesn't show you how the original player did it and is rather, how the "Tabber" played it and managed to approximate what they heard.

Tab on the internet is hardly ever an attempt to show what another player did, but rather an atempt to show how "clever" the person who posted it is - for al the wrong reasons!

 

[moley]

Originally posted by Garrett Mireles


Well excuse me, but not all of us have perfect pitch, or semi-perfect pitch for that matter. So if we see "A B D A C D F#" we dont' know what the hell that sounds like

You don't need perfect pitch to know what it sounds like - just relative pitch. Which is what developing your ear is about.

how do we know if A B D A is on the same string, or if it should be played on several different strings?

Does it matter? This is theory, we're talking about notes here - it doesn't matter which string you play 'em on.

It could be:

A|-0--2--5--0--

Or it could be:

A|-----------------0--
E|-17--19------------
B|-----------15--------

Like I said, it doesn't matter which. It's all the same thing! It doesn't matter which strings you play it on, you're still playing the same notes.

And for the record, you CAN post note lenghts in a tab. Just have every - represent 16th note.

That doesn't represent note lengths, that represents where in the bar a note starts. Different thing.