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Double Bass what key?

M

mloveva

Nov 24, 2008
4
0
Ashburn, VA
#1
Alright, im not new to the whole modes and scales, but im havin trouble figuring out something, ok, lets say im playing a song that starts on the D in Cmajor scale, thats a dorian mode, now my question is, would you say your playing in Dminor, since its a minor chord?.. or am i still playing in C..? ... but on the 2nd?... im confused!
 
#2
You're mixing apples and oranges. Functional theory doesn't really have that much in common with modes (broad strokes here, folks).

It's not that starting on a D in a song means that you're playing a Dorian mode, you have to see how the note relates to the chord (is that D a chord tone, a passing tone or a tension), how the chord functions in the structure of the piece (is it diatonic to the key signature or are you implying a key change).

It's a lot to deal with, and the firmer a foundation you build, the sturdier your long term understanding will be. If you don't currently have a teacher, I would highly recommend doing so. They'll be able to cover this material, concurrently with physical approach and ear training, in such a way that you can integrate ALL of this stuff in a musical fashion.
 
#3
mloveva said:
Alright, im not new to the whole modes and scales, but im havin trouble figuring out something, ok, lets say im playing a song that starts on the D in Cmajor scale, thats a dorian mode, now my question is, would you say your playing in Dminor, since its a minor chord?.. or am i still playing in C..? ... but on the 2nd?... im confused!
Click to expand...

Neither. You're playing in D Dorian.


Modal music is a little different than what we're used to. You have to consider the function of each scale degree. It depends on the context and how you're hearing it.

As to whether you're playing "D Dorian" or "notes in the key of C starting on D", it would depend on which note is functioning as the tonic.

:)
 
#6
mloveva said:
4bpauly,
i was just using an example, if a song IS in the key of "C"major, and the chord progression is lets say D, A, C (II, VI, I) you would still say its in the key of C correct?
Click to expand...

II-VI-I is not really a chord progression the would clearly establish any key. Are those all major chords? If so, the II and VI would have non-scale tones (the thirds). D major to A major to C major would actually be a somewhat odd chord progression.

V-I is the basic progression that establishes a key. The Dominant (V) to the Tonic (I) The progression ii-V-I is an extension of that.

So a D minor chord by itself does not establish any key. If the D minor is followed by A major and the back to D minor, that would establish a key of D minor. (i-V-i) If it went from D minor to G major and then to C major, you're establishing the key of C. (ii-V-I) It totally depends on the context.

Being able to hear and identify I (one) is a basic musical skill. If you are confused about this, take Ed Fuqua's advice.
 
#7
mloveva said:
4bpauly,
i was just using an example, if a song IS in the key of "C"major, and the chord progression is lets say D, A, C (II, VI, I) you would still say its in the key of C correct?
Click to expand...

Maybe you should just say what the song is:hmm:

I'm assuming at present you mean a tune that starts on a D-7 in the key of C major (or no flats/sharps) and nothing wild is going in the middle (which might indicate "no key sig" approach) yes, you're in C. That's just a tune that begins up in the air, ie. on a II chord. There's tons of tunes that do that. The likelihood for a standard with a II chord start is the chord change in bar 7, 15 and 31 (if 32 bar tune) will be the I major (in this case Cmaj). Is this the case?

As others have indicated modes have nothing to do with this. A mode in a songbook context is merely the given expectation for the mode vs. the chord change, which either can be stuck with or deviated with as you make your own avenues.
 
#10
Trying to get back to mloveva's original question, if the key is actually determined to be C, then yes, a D minor is the ii chord. You may be improvising using the dorian mode over the ii chord, but you are still in the key of C.

It's important to understand what makes a "key" a "key". It seems that a lot of musicians learn to "play this mode over this chord" etc., yet still have big gaps in their understanding of the basic harmonic concepts. What establishes a "key"? Most of the music that we deal with these days is based on diatonic (and related) scales. So from the diatonic scale, the key is most clearly established by the stong melodic tendency of the leading tone (vii) to resolve to the tonic (I). Harmonically speaking, the Dominant (V chord) to Tonic (I chord) relationship establishes the key of a song, and once again the leading tone resolution plays a crucial role in this progression. (It's possible to have a song be in a certain "key" without ever actually playing V to I, but the relationship will still be implied) Modes are only scales built on different degrees of the original scale, they are not "keys" unto themselves.

This all might sound complicated but it's not really. Your ear will hear it. Learn to always know where "one" is. (melodically and rhythmically speaking ;) )
 
#14
When trying to determine a key, it is most helpful to look for the dominant. Of course this can become tricky because of modulations, secondary dominants, tonicizations, etc, but as a very general rule of thumb, start by looking at the key signature. Lets say no sharps, no flats so key of C major or a minor. If you see lots of G7 to C chords (V7-I) you are in the key of C. If you see lots of E7 to a minor chords (V7-i) you are most likely in the key of a minor. The d minor chord you reference is just functioning as a predominant, ii in the key of C or iv in the key of a minor. In classical music it is often seen in the iii, vi, ii, V, I type of form. Again this is all very general. Music theory can become very complicated very quickly.
 
#15
thanks bobby king, that was prob the least complicated description yet, lets take a simple song, good ol sweet home alabama, the chord progression is D, C, G... you start on D which is the fifth degree of the Gmajor scale, so your playin in the key of Gmajor correct?
 
#16
Remember bro,

Music doesn't have to be too literal. By any means. Call it what you will if it helps you get the idea or feel of the song across to listeners. It may help to see it as the "Key" of D dorian. Make the 2nd scale degree the tonic. Making E ii F III G IV...etc.. nobody is going to question what it is written in. Face it, when the song is all said and done the key becomes an arbritrary element to the particular music. Perhaps, then your main focus is harmonization. And seeing it note for note before each phrase.

Best of Luck,
W
 
#17
mloveva said:
thanks bobby king, that was prob the least complicated description yet, lets take a simple song, good ol sweet home alabama, the chord progression is D, C, G... you start on D which is the fifth degree of the Gmajor scale, so your playin in the key of Gmajor correct?
Click to expand...



You know, "Sweet Home Alabama" is a little tricky as far as what key it's in. I'm more inclined to say that it's in D, and the chord progression is (in Nashville numbers) : 1 b7 4 4

You could describe it as: 5 4 1 1 in G, but I don't think it is. The melody of the song is centered around a D and it's like a pentatonic scale melody.

It's the b7 chord (flat 7 major triad) that causes the confusion. Take a similar song, "Can't You See". In that case the progression is:
1 b7 4 1. (D C G D)

Same thing only it goes back to 1. But you probably wouldn't think "Can't you See" was in G, you'd think D. In both cases, there is never any 5 chord, the "dominant" which most strongly establishes the key. That leaves it a little ambiguous, harmonically speaking.

Major chords built on scale degrees like b7, b3 and b6 are common in rock and blues tunes. It's almost like a harmony system built on a blues scale.

I once had a discussion with a music teacher about that b7 chord. I called it the "4 of 4", but he said that it was more like a substitute for a 1 dominant seventh chord (17). In traditional harmony, that chord would signal a modulation to 4. So, that way of looking at "Sweet Home Alabama" would be like this: 1 17 4 4. It's as if it starts in D, then makes a temporary modulation to G. But I'm more inclined to think of it as being in D, but using that "blues scale harmony" (I'd be interested in any of you music instructors weighing in on this)

This stuff can get a little complicated, and sometimes you have to look at several factors to determine the key of a song.


** I thought of another good example to discuss the b7 chord -- "Hey Jude". So, the majority of the song is regular C major, plenty of 5 dominant chords, sort of a temporary modulation to F in the bridge that goes gracefully back to C, nothing unusual. But then at the end refrain we have that same progression: 1 b7 4 1. So how do you explain the Bb major triad in the key of C? Same thing I suppose, either it's a substitute for a 1 dominant seven (creating a temporary modulation to 4) or it belongs to that realm of blues/rock harmony where a b7 major triad is "kosher" :) without considering it outside of the key.
 
#18
Bobby King said:
You know, "Sweet Home Alabama" is a little tricky as far as what key it's in. I'm more inclined to say that it's in D, and the chord progression is (in Nashville numbers) : 1 b7 4 4
Click to expand...

I would say the best interpretation in today's context is what you said otherwise it's pulling the style into another style(ie classical or jazz)for the sake of analysis. Temp mod to G and then a plagal: IV-I (C to G). The whole style of the song is not to get too elaborate-- like D7/C for example. The temp change in key to IV is immediately signaled by the introduction of C. That's all you need to justify it. Just need to undo it back to get to the original root, D. Which is not that hard to do when dealing with a triadic pallette.
 
#19
nypiano said:
I would say the best interpretation in today's context is what you said otherwise it's pulling the style into another style(ie classical or jazz)for the sake of analysis. Temp mod to G and then a plagal: IV-I (C to G). The whole style of the song is not to get too elaborate-- like D7/C for example. The temp change in key to IV is immediately signaled by the introduction of C. That's all you need to justify it. Just need to undo it back to get to the original root, D. Which is not that hard to do when dealing with a triadic pallette.
Click to expand...

I agree with you, in today's context there's nothing unusual about a major triad built on the b7 degree. Still, it's notable that Mloveva thought that "Sweet Home Alabama" was in G. I'd guess the confusion is because 1 - b7 - 4 looks like 5 - 4 - 1. But I wonder if he really hears G as the "one", and if so it's interesting to examine why.

A related harmonic subject, to me anyway :), is the "b7 9 11" chord, i.e. F/G, Bb/C, etc. It's a pretty familiar sound, a type of 11th chord often used as a dominant, more or less a Vsus chord. This was popular with the 60's pop writers like Carole King and Barry Mann and remains popular today. When it's used as a dominant, the Vsus does not resolve as it would traditionally before returning to the I chord. So in a sense it's like the "plagal" you describe, IV-I, and there is no leading tone resolution. (The "b7 9 11" chord is also used in other ways, like on the I chord in pop songs like "You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling" or "Hey Girl". Or a song like Michael Jackson's "Rock With You" has it moving parallel on various scale degrees. This works because the chord has no 5th or major 3rd.)

IMO, all of this represents what I see as a modern-day aversion to the leading tone, which many find too "sentimental" sounding. IV-I is much less "committal" than V-I with it's leading tone resolution. (Likewise the popularity of "add 9" or "add 2" chords with their ambiguous tonality. None of those pesky 3rds that make you have to commit to something!)
 

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