Depends I guess, if it's loud enough it's loud enoughI Just wouldn't recommend the 6.0 with an 8 ohm fEarful myself.
It's not the optimal head but if that's what he already has it will sound fine with a 12/6 or 2.
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What makes fEARFUL Cabs so scary?
- Thread starter SRCRS
- Start date
It's not the optimal head but if that's what he already has it will sound fine with a 12/6 or 2.
I think you are referring to room resonance, not the same thing as too much bass*. For that you need effective eq and someone who knows how to use it. Some rooms you will never tame completely but with effective eqing they can be improved dramatically.
*"Too much bass" Better to have more than you need and choose to not use it than wish you had more. I've done both and prefer the former.
You said yourself that you just do not get it and you are quite right, you don't. If you possibly can you should check out a cab by Alex Caber or Greenboy etc. You may be pleasantly surprised.
This is, in general, a very friendly place, and the best way to use and benefit from TB (IMO) is to strongly state your case but actually be respectful of others, and come in with an open mind that there are probably guys here who know a lot more than you (or me)
Sure, thanks for the advice.
Reading "there's no such a thing as too much bass" makes me loose control...
It is interesting that one of the most active threads on TB at the moment concerns a very nice, very small, very affordable external hi pass pedal designed and sold by TBer FDeck. Nice unit, and it is cool that many players are learning that sometimes you can get 'more bass' in your tone and out into the room by actually having 'less bass' (i.e., hard-cutting the sub bass) coming out of your cab (which is I think what you are describing in some of your posts). TB is a pretty cool place for a layman like me to learn about this stuff. And, for me, being a bit of a gear hog who still regularly gigs, it is fun for me to try all this stuff in the 'real world' and put some 'ears on the specs'.
Regarding the poster you are commenting on above, to be fair, I think what he was probably describing is that there is nothing so satisfying (IMO) as having a cab that produces the low end that you like (i.e., for some, a very clean, wide, non compressed low end down to 50hz or so) with no quashing or farting, etc.
Sure you can have too much bass in the mix but just because you have the capability to bury a couple of half stack guitarists and a heavy handed drummer doesn't mean that you should!
But having the option is nice.
yes, when I said "there's no such thing as too much bass"
is was immediately followed by "It goes clean and deep. What comes out of such a well thought out design is up to you."
so, how about this Martha?
"There is no such thing as having too much bass available to you so that in the event you want to reach clean and deep you are not going to be limited by an inferior speaker design."
better?
I still think you are confusing booming mids with crystal clear bass.
And of course you can have too much bass in a MIX! Doh'!
is was immediately followed by "It goes clean and deep. What comes out of such a well thought out design is up to you."
so, how about this Martha?
"There is no such thing as having too much bass available to you so that in the event you want to reach clean and deep you are not going to be limited by an inferior speaker design."
better?
I still think you are confusing booming mids with crystal clear bass.
And of course you can have too much bass in a MIX! Doh'!
Better, thank you...
I'm biased.
Have worked with sound guys from the US a few times and they always had my bass sounding like a "string bass drum". Extreme bass, no mids, no highs. Muddy mess... When I hear the things you guys write here I'm reminded of that...
I mix and produce stuff. Very familiar with frequencies.
40hz hip-hop stuff can be a nightmare. You guys are talking figures lower than that...
Check this out:
Do you want that in your gig?
As long as I'm on a roll here
, I think one of the things that always fills these fEARful threads with drama that doesn't seem to happen with most other 'brands' is the 'black and white' statements concerning 'inferior design'.Here is another, less confrontational way to look at this. I'll use the venerable 410 with tweeter as an example. An 'inferior design' infers that the designer either didn't know what he/she was doing, or that the design does not achieve the performance goals desired. With a 410, this is, IMO not the case. For guys of my generation (who grew up playing and performing starting in the 70's), one of THE tones that many pop/funk players tried to achieve was what now has become known as the 'classic 70's J bass tone'.
When you look at the measurements that drive that tone, it is defined (IMO) by a lot of fat low mids/upper bass, not a lot of deep bass, plenty of mid mids, a SHARP dip in the upper mids (the 'slap gank' area), and a strong dose of upper treble. This results in a low end that sits above the bass drum in a mix but is still forceful, mid-midrange articulation for note definition, and an almost complete removal of the frequencies centered around 1K or so, which allows the frequencies above 4K (depending on where tweeter is crossed over) to kind of 'sit above the tone'.
That is very much the 'general' response profile of many 410's. I guess if you look at that on a scope or waterfall plot, and are using 'flat and extended' as your 'gold standard', you would say that is an 'inferior design'. However, for that sort of classic tone goal, a 410 just kills live, and does a great job of emulating the recorded tone on a zillion classic recordings. A Fridge with a P would be another example in a more 'rock' context.
So, in the above example, upper midrange dispersion... zero issue, since the narrow range of the freqs most impacted by beaming and comb filtering is rolled out anyway. Lack of deep low end and and a 'hump' in the upper bass... check
, strong, boosted mid mid response... check, and a sizzly top end.... check.So, to me, when you say 'a 410 is an inferior design', I would say, at least in some cases, you are measuring the wrong things.
Again, don't get me wrong, I understand the idea of a more neutral tone platform at the start, and the ability to go low if you want to. Just realize (and boy did I get a wonderful dose of this living Detroit for 8 years or so), there are lots of wonderful players with amazing tones in a live setting from backline only in clubs, who find a 410 EXACTLY fits their tone goals, and actually sounds VERY even around the room.
Just another, and IMO, less confrontational way to look at his. For bass backline, I look at a 'relatively flat, even response' of a cab as just one of an infinite number of frequency response profiles, not in any way a 'gold standard' for many players.
Right!
Im not looking for anything below 35hz or so, and I use a HPF to cut out what I dont want.
What lead me to check out what a fEARful could actually do was an amp that I had been hunting and finally purchased. The Classic 400 is a beast of an all tube amp, huge transformers. One of the attributes of these transformers is that the amp puts out its full rated 400 watts of clean power, and will do so at 40hz. I couldnt find a commercial cab that I liked that could give me what I wanted in that frequency range. So my fEARful gives me the frequency content I want, at the volume I want.
Im not looking for anything below 35hz or so, and I use a HPF to cut out what I dont want.
What lead me to check out what a fEARful could actually do was an amp that I had been hunting and finally purchased. The Classic 400 is a beast of an all tube amp, huge transformers. One of the attributes of these transformers is that the amp puts out its full rated 400 watts of clean power, and will do so at 40hz. I couldnt find a commercial cab that I liked that could give me what I wanted in that frequency range. So my fEARful gives me the frequency content I want, at the volume I want.
Thanks KJung - it is tough to put into words
I have a TV duo ten and I love the tone - not "inferior" - just different.
Hey! Does anyone know when the fEARless 15's are going to hit the market? I see the 12 and the reviews are exciting.
I have a TV duo ten and I love the tone - not "inferior" - just different.
Hey! Does anyone know when the fEARless 15's are going to hit the market? I see the 12 and the reviews are exciting.
And I wanted a cab that could finction as a clean canvas- something responsive to EQ and effects in such a way that I could predict results, control them and alter them without having to fight extreme coloration in the cab. I had it with my Carvin BRX 10.2 Neos to a pretty good degree. The 1212/6/1 I have does everything I liked with the Carvins, but to an even greater degree.
It has also helped for me not to view the fEARful as uncolored. Too much time spent in high-end home audio to buy that claim. Cabinets, crossovers, speakers themselves all impart or take away something, there's just no way around it.
Instead, I view the fEARful as extremely reactive. I've used a variety of heads, including a Genz Benz 12.0 Shuttlemax, a Mesa Boogie M9 Carbine, and currently a Carvin B1500. Surprisingly to me, the Carvin wins hands down in getting what I want. Second place, again to my surprised, goes to a Sansamp BDDI going into a Crown XLS1500. My head prefers semi-paramatric EQ at multiple points, but my ears prefer the simpler EQ features. The ears win...
It has also helped for me not to view the fEARful as uncolored. Too much time spent in high-end home audio to buy that claim. Cabinets, crossovers, speakers themselves all impart or take away something, there's just no way around it.
Instead, I view the fEARful as extremely reactive. I've used a variety of heads, including a Genz Benz 12.0 Shuttlemax, a Mesa Boogie M9 Carbine, and currently a Carvin B1500. Surprisingly to me, the Carvin wins hands down in getting what I want. Second place, again to my surprised, goes to a Sansamp BDDI going into a Crown XLS1500. My head prefers semi-paramatric EQ at multiple points, but my ears prefer the simpler EQ features. The ears win...
+1
I also am looking forward to hearing a fEARless cab one of these days. Nice tweak on the original design for players with tone goals closer to mine.
The 215 is out, the 115 has not been released yet. I know there are a few cabs designs in the works so who knows whats coming next or when.
Chef
In Memoriam
"+ 1 Million here."
The fF design is a nice enough thing.
Sonically, it's not a thing that suits all players, in all situations, at all times, any more than any other design does, or, doesn't.
The fF design is a nice enough thing.
Sonically, it's not a thing that suits all players, in all situations, at all times, any more than any other design does, or, doesn't.
As long as I'm on a roll here
Here is another, less confrontational way to look at this. I'll use the venerable 410 with tweeter as an example. An 'inferior design' infers that the designer either didn't know what he/she was doing, or that the design does not achieve the performance goals desired. With a 410, this is, IMO not the case. For guys of my generation (who grew up playing and performing starting in the 70's), one of THE tones that many pop/funk players tried to achieve was what now has become known as the 'classic 70's J bass tone'.
When you look at the measurements that drive that tone, it is defined (IMO) by a lot of fat low mids/upper bass, not a lot of deep bass, plenty of mid mids, a SHARP dip in the upper mids (the 'slap gank' area), and a strong does of upper treble. This results in a low end that sits above the bass drum in a mix but is still forceful, mid-midrange articulation for note definition, and an almost complete removal of the frequencies centered around 1K or so, which allows the frequencies above 4K (depending on where tweeter is crossed over) to kind of 'sit above the tone'.
That is very much the 'general' response profile of many 410's. I guess if you look at that on a scope or waterfall plot, and are using 'flat and extended' as your 'gold standard', you would say that is an 'inferior design'. However, for that sort of classic tone goal, a 410 just kills live, and does a great job of emulating the recorded tone on a zillion classic recordings. A Fridge with a P would be another example in a more 'rock' context.
So, in the above example, upper midrange dispersion... zero issue, since the narrow range of the freqs most impacted by beaming and comb filtering is rolled out anyway. Lack of deep low end and an 'hump' in the uppper bass... check
So, to me, when you say 'a 410 is an inferior design', I would say, at least in some cases, you are measuring the wrong things.
Again, don't get me wrong, I understand the idea of a more neutral tone platform at the start, and the ability to go low if you want to. Just realize (and boy did I get a wonderful dose of this living Detroit for 8 years or so), there are lots of wonderful players with amazing tones in a live setting from backline only in clubs, who find a 410 EXACTLY fits their tone goals, and actually sounds VERY even around the room.
Just another, and IMO, less confrontational way to look at his. For bass backline, I look at a 'relatively flat, even response' of a cab as just one of an infinite number of frequency response profiles, not in any way a 'gold standard' for many players.
I see you're in NJ. I have a gig in Morristown this Saturday. You (or anyone else who might be interested) are more than welcome to sit in and give my GBE-1200 + 1212/6/1 a whirl. Just let me know. Here's my gig schedule:
https://www.facebook.com/13thfloorband/events
- Mar 8, 2011
- 12,232
- 51,187
- Disclosures
- Authorized greenboy designs builder/Owner of BNA Audio
The Fearless 112 is pretty exciting, to me at least
Being an upright guy mostly, I found a lot of the cabs with the 18 Sound mid driver to be a bit much, but when I padded it back I felt something was missing. The 5" Faital greenboy is putting in the small Fearless cabs hits me a little better for what I'm going for. I can make the fEARful work easily, but I can get there a little quicker on a Fearless. The lows are tighter as well. You can still add em in and get as much as you want, but 'flat' it's a much tighter sound with smoother mids. The Faitals extend a bit higher, smoothly, making the horn an extremely subtle thing...I like that.
Spoke with greenboy this morning...the Fearless 115 will be out VERY soon. It's done, for all intents, but we're doing a little more testing to make sure it's 'just right.'
For now, all my local gigs are easily handled on that little F112 and it is shocking people...my favorite 'sound per pound' cab so far
The Fearless 112 is pretty exciting, to me at least
Being an upright guy mostly, I found a lot of the cabs with the 18 Sound mid driver to be a bit much, but when I padded it back I felt something was missing. The 5" Faital greenboy is putting in the small Fearless cabs hits me a little better for what I'm going for. I can make the fEARful work easily, but I can get there a little quicker on a Fearless. The lows are tighter as well. You can still add em in and get as much as you want, but 'flat' it's a much tighter sound with smoother mids. The Faitals extend a bit higher, smoothly, making the horn an extremely subtle thing...I like that.
Don Oatman of LDS (Low Down Sound) has been spec'ing his 3012LF 12/6 cabs with a wonderful Ralf Patterson crossover and the Faital mid driver for a number of years now. DEFINITELY one of the best 12/6 executions I've heard. That is a very nice spec. Don spec's nice flared rear ports also, making the box size nice and small. I bet the fEARful execution is very nice also. That is a move in the right direction IMO for many players looking for a 'super 12' that has a bit more of a 'normal' tone profile (i.e., a bit tighter down low, a bit more organic and relaxed up top).
Have a look to the "predicted" frequency response.
Link Removed
The tuning fb of the cabs seems to be very well balanced/adressed. Nothing to see that could to be discredit.
All the shown response provide enough low frequency content to provide good performance with a strong basement for playing a low B0 note.
In general I only consider what's going on with 60Hz for B0, but never 30Hz.
The -3dB corner seems also well placed and provides therefore good mechanical stability to deal fine with subharmonic content.
I'd say, it is reduced risk to overdrive excursion of the cones.
Btw the 1212/6 reminds me very strong to my own DIY 212/8 cab.
Flat lined response until close above the -3dB point at approx 50Hz.
The large RMS values let me assume the speakers are coming with a 3" voice coil, or even bigger.
The moderate SPL values lets assume speakers with some larger moving mass then the most bass cab speakers on the market have.
All in all I assume “heavy” prof PA woofers.
It's probably not Eminence Kappalite or Deltalite because their response between 60..150Hz looks normally different to the graph.
The moderate SPL is not a disadvantage at all like it looks.
Those speakers take a lot of power.
Their advantage is a very tight performance even at very high acoustic power.
And btw improved mechanical stability beyond the -3dB points.
I assume the performance is very tight up to extremely high acoustic power. With different words: cab designs like these can play (mostly) louder then others.
Of course there has enough amp power provided.
Twice the rated amp power is probably no problem.
The sound (or voicing) is probably not everybody’s taste. I myself like those designs. I strongly assume my own DIY 212 performs similar. But everybody who searches for a vintage voicing I’d suggest other stuff.
Link Removed
The tuning fb of the cabs seems to be very well balanced/adressed. Nothing to see that could to be discredit.
All the shown response provide enough low frequency content to provide good performance with a strong basement for playing a low B0 note.
In general I only consider what's going on with 60Hz for B0, but never 30Hz.
The -3dB corner seems also well placed and provides therefore good mechanical stability to deal fine with subharmonic content.
I'd say, it is reduced risk to overdrive excursion of the cones.
Btw the 1212/6 reminds me very strong to my own DIY 212/8 cab.
Flat lined response until close above the -3dB point at approx 50Hz.
The large RMS values let me assume the speakers are coming with a 3" voice coil, or even bigger.
The moderate SPL values lets assume speakers with some larger moving mass then the most bass cab speakers on the market have.
All in all I assume “heavy” prof PA woofers.
It's probably not Eminence Kappalite or Deltalite because their response between 60..150Hz looks normally different to the graph.
The moderate SPL is not a disadvantage at all like it looks.
Those speakers take a lot of power.
Their advantage is a very tight performance even at very high acoustic power.
And btw improved mechanical stability beyond the -3dB points.
I assume the performance is very tight up to extremely high acoustic power. With different words: cab designs like these can play (mostly) louder then others.
Of course there has enough amp power provided.
Twice the rated amp power is probably no problem.
The sound (or voicing) is probably not everybody’s taste. I myself like those designs. I strongly assume my own DIY 212 performs similar. But everybody who searches for a vintage voicing I’d suggest other stuff.
