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Double Bass what mode is it?

#22
fingers said:
My soul mate. Damon. I liggityluv you.

or is it Ligeti-luv?

Man, I'm such a geek.
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I'm honoured, I think....

Who's Ligeti? Does this make it brother love? Man love? Not that there's anything wrong with that.... Geek love it is!

I just thought I'd jump in on it -- I was farking some time away at the computer (daughter at home from school today sick with a cold, I'm refraining from making much noise) and it seemed like a worthy cause.
 
#24
Per Damon: "And I say it ain't like that. I'm with the Swami. Music "theory" is only a descriptive language that talks about aspects of music. It's not music, not by a long shot or any stretch of the imagination. Real music is in your head and then in the air and then in listeners' ears. Theory is ONLY a tool for talking about music and, at the end of the day, talk don't matter. Music does."


I've tried to stay out of this but it is fun!! +1 Swami/Fingers & Damon

Maybe we should just call the 2nd mode: Jo Mama!

How many times have you heard a great player completely superimpose his own subs or alter the existing "standard" chords to fit his musical vision? If the player, and the ideas he is creating on the spot, are strong and compelling...what else matters.... Don't get me wrong..everyone should have a solid theoretical knowledge of music...but as Damon said that's merely and only a starting point.

Great players play...everyone else....:cool:
 
#29
Well, it might. I am trying to find out the reason for needing to know a label for these pitch collections. Since they never took the time to fill in their profile I don't know whether they are a 13 year old kid with a bass they bought at Target or if they are a pro that has a theory question.

My point all along, and it is not off topic, is why does the OP wantt to know the answer to 'What' rather than 'Why'. I think 'Why' is the more important question.
 
#31
Perhaps... but some would argue that to get to the 'why' as you call it, you sometimes need to know the 'what' first. The famous saying 'you can't run before you can walk' springs to mind. While I personally don't see the need to label everything, it has it's purpose.

I just find amusing the way that these threads go way off topic sometimes - like now - we're debating/discussing the 'what and 'why' - when all the poor guy just wanted to know what 2 scales were! I guess this is what makes these forums so enjoyable.... :)
 
#32
derrenleepoole said:
Perhaps... but some would argue that to get to the 'why' as you call it, you sometimes need to know the 'what' first. The famous saying 'you can't run before you can walk' springs to mind. While I personally don't see the need to label everything, it has it's purpose.
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I would argue the 'Why' comes first.

I think that is a problem with the way Jazz Theory is taught sometimes. We break everything down into little pieces and talk and talk. But how does that relate to the song? Is the song just a set of changes after the melody? Does each chord exist on its own or is it part of a bigger picture? How does that Am7b5 function in the tune?

I've found that jazz educators often like to pick stuff apart into the smallest possible parts but like Damon said Bird didn't know theory. How did he construct his solos? I don't know for sure but I'd venture to guess that he knew where the tune was and where it was going.

This doesn't mean we can't talk about theory. I think, and it is a bit of a crusade of mine as an educator, that we need to look at the bigger picture and think about 'Why' we are doing what we are doing.
 
#33
I would rather study, listen to, and be mentored by someone who can really play rather than someone who is adept/facile at throwing out and/or making up nomenclature! I hope that the OP is interested in the same thing. If not.... "So What"
 
#34
Besides, the OP Dude got several names before some of us started riffing on this thing and saying what we think. It's not like it hasn't come up before....

This "on-topic" business.... When you're yakking with your pals and peers and what-have-you, do you get upset when the conversation goes along and takes a natural course? It goes where it goes... As far as I'm concerned if somebody comes along and asks "whaddya call this here" and the response (especially when the response is coming from an experienced pro) is "whaddya need a name for?", it's completely legitimate and on-topic.
 
#35
ehochberg said:
Who's name for it is that, and why? No, this isn't a question for the Great Carnak.
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It basically comes out of the Chord Scale Handbook by Gary Keller. It's basically a different way of naming all the modes of the minor scales, i.e. Locrian #2 is the seventh mode of Jazz Melodic Minor. The book also discusses things like brightness/darkness of chords and how to utilize chord qualities as particular colors.

As far as all this discussion goes, I'm mostly going to stay out of it. I tend to have my hands in both sides of the argument. I personally don't like the Keller method of thinking of these scales, where I'm more used to terms like "Diminished Whole Tone" as opposed to "Ionian #1" (I mean, come on...). Do I think of these things when I'm improvising? Not really. But it doesn't hurt to know about it...It's all vocabulary/math/extra tools, etc...however you want to think about it. As someone who wants to be a successful improvising artist, I think studying as many ways to approach it is helpful, from the nerdiest Math (Mixolydian #4 = Lydian Dominant = C7(#11)) to more intangible methods (play your feelings).

Ultimately, I think being devise from either side and claiming that one or the other way are better or more valid than the other is more detrimental than viewing it all as kosher. Just my 3 cents...
 
#36
Damon Rondeau said:
Besides, the OP Dude got several names before some of us started riffing on this thing and saying what we think. It's not like it hasn't come up before....

This "on-topic" business.... When you're yakking with your pals and peers and what-have-you, do you get upset when the conversation goes along and takes a natural course? It goes where it goes... As far as I'm concerned if somebody comes along and asks "whaddya call this here" and the response (especially when the response is coming from an experienced pro) is "whaddya need a name for?", it's completely legitimate and on-topic.
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Thank you.
 
#37
Chrix said:
Ultimately, I think being devise from either side and claiming that one or the other way are better or more valid than the other is more detrimental than viewing it all as kosher. Just my 3 cents...
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With due respect Chrix I think you are missing the (or at least my) point. In my mind there are not sides and we are not talking about theory nerd vs feeling artist. Rather I am just asking why the OP wants a name for those notes. That's it. I feel like a broken record.

Of course it is all kosher but I want to help the OP learn. You know the Socratic Method (teaching by guided questioning) and all.
 
#38
Chrix said:
It's basically a different way of naming all the modes of the minor scales, i.e. Locrian #2 is the seventh mode of Jazz Melodic Minor....It's all vocabulary/math/extra tools, etc...however you want to think about it. As someone who wants to be a successful improvising artist, I think studying as many ways to approach it is helpful, from the nerdiest Math (Mixolydian #4 = Lydian Dominant = C7(#11)) to more intangible methods (play your feelings)
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I just got back from coaching the high-school combo. I learned that both the horn-players have literally NO background in musical theory. Oooo-kay.

We spent a few minutes on the notion that chords can be derived from scales and that thinking about tonal centers can help to connect chords in ways that might not be immediately apparent. It was a brand-new concept and it might be some help. But throughout the session, I resisted the idea that "you can play over all these bars with the Bb major scale and it will be right." Frankly, I don't care if it's "right" or if it's easier to grasp. In the end it will mean a lot more to the kids to hear the notes and chords working together than it would if somebody just told them, "These notes are good notes" and they stuck to only the 'good notes.'

I totally respect where you're coming from, Chrix, and I respect the amount of work it took to get you there. That said and meant, I don't want these kids thinking about how Locrian #2 is the seventh mode of Jazz Melodic Minor (whatever that is). I want them to keep their ears wide open and to the extent that they're thinking, I want them to remember that they are never more than a half-step away from a note that will sound pretty good.

One of Ed Fuqua's great old posts related his week spent playing with Elvin Jones. Somebody started to ask Mr. Jones some detailed gear question. Mr. Jones interrupted and said, "You've got to remember that music is all about LOVE!"

Obviously music is about more than love, jazz is about more than just 'playing what you feel' and learning more about what is happening and why is better than purposely remaining ignorant. But Elvin's quote is still words to live by, and I do believe that listening and joy are under-emphasized for younger players. My basic approach to working with kids is that it's more important for them to stretch than it is for them to land safely all the time. There's always time to learn the degrees of the Super-Locrian modality. It's never too early to practice listening and busting a grin.
 
#39
Sam Sherry "I totally respect where you're coming from, Chrix, and I respect the amount of work it took to get you there. That said and meant, I don't want these kids thinking about how Locrian #2 is the seventh mode of Jazz Melodic Minor (whatever that is). I want them to keep their ears wide open and to the extent that they're thinking, I want them to remember that they are never more than a half-step away from a note that will sound pretty good."

Very well said. Mr. Sherry:)

" Sam Sherry: "Obviously music is about more than love, jazz is about more than just 'playing what you feel' and learning more about what is happening and why is better than purposely remaining ignorant. But Elvin's quote is still words to live by, and I do believe that listening and joy are under-emphasized for younger players. My basic approach to working with kids is that it's more important for them to stretch than it is for them to land safely all the time. There's always time to learn the degrees of the Super-Locrian modality. It's never too early to practice listening and busting a grin."

Again...Kudoos Sam

As a teacher, I know through the available and accepted literature, as well as what is currently considered accepted pedagogical principals (my what big words) ha ha, that one of the primary goals in any teaching situation is to provide a "why".. for the student. This "why" typically helps motivate a learner/student and gives her/him a reason to undertake the hard work it almost always takes to understand and become accomplished in any subject. Learning is messy... It is not easy or linear..but it is rewarding:D
 

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