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What to play over a bossa-nova / latin type beat?
- Thread starter parrott
- Start date
Originally posted by The Bass Guru
I was gonna recomend that BOOK? well I have the DVD and it's great, great latin stuff
I've got the video and it is very good - but not much to do with bossa nova!
Again, I think it is very important to draw the distinction between Brazilian music, which includes Bossa Nova - and Afro-Cuban, which is what "Funkifying the Clave" is about - South America is a big continent!!
But anyway, this is not a pedantic point as the bass lines are very different and an Afro Cuban bass line will not fit with boss nova and vice versa!!
So Lincoln Goines and Robby Ament are talking about the clave and "tumbao" patterns - how these relate to Cuban based music like Songo, Guacuango, Cha-Cha-Cha etc. - these are very different to bossa nova....
I agree entirely with this - samba is great to play live and really gets a crowd dancing, but no recordings capture the excitment at all.
I've played percussion in batucadas and it is an exciting, exhausting thing to do - everybody gets caught up in the physicality of it and says how much they love it - but I've often recorded these things and they sound terrible - lots of missed beats and innacuracies - but at the time as I say, everybody gets caught up in the experience and excitement.
I think this is the thing that gets "Latin" music lumped together as it is about live excitement, dancing and movement and not sterile, perfect recordings - it's great to play and see how an audience reacts !
NO they're not, they're very similar. BTW Guacuango??? don't you mean Guapango? (spelled Huapango)
Doesn't Bossa Nova mean "New Beat?"
Is it fair to say the basic bossa/samba beat is in cut time alternating dotted quarter and eigth notes?
Is it fair to say the basic bossa/samba beat is in cut time alternating dotted quarter and eigth notes?
Well - you're just wrong on this!
The typical Afro-Cuban bass line is the Tumbao, which Goines demonstrates on the video. The idea of this is to anticipate the chord change and play it in the 4th beat of the preceding bar, tying over into the next bar - and avoiding the first beat of the bar.
In Bossa Nova bass lines you don't usually avoid the one, but use this as a strong beat with a chord tone - usually the root or fifth.
Bossa Nova is actually not the name of a particular style. It's a generic term used to refer to the "new beat" style that came to North America from Brazil in the late 50's. The "classic" bossa nova beat is actually a slow samba. The samba beat is characterised by a drum called the SURDO.
The surdo beat is very simple: in 4/4, a high-pitched, short beat is played on "1" and a big booming beat is played on "3". Actually, in the 2/2 time that bossa is felt in, it's on what is then called "2", but most North American charts (for example, the "Real Book") notate it as 4/4.
To simulate this on bass, we play the root as a short note on "1", and play the 5th with an accent on "3". It's preferable to drop DOWN to the 5th when practical
(pS - OK it was a typo "guaguanco" - sorry for the bad typing
)
No I'm not.
That would be Zurdo
Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
(pS - OK it was a typo "guaguanco" - sorry for the bad typing
Hey don't worry, I forgot to put this little "dude"
Hey what's going on here - is this now the typo correction thread!!
OK - I mistyped one letter in a long post are we talking about music here or a typing test ?
-are you addressing the issues I raised or just hung up on spelling as well!??
So - I pointed out why a Tumbao is completely different to a Bossa Nova bass line - are you going to provide any evidence for why you say they are similar?
Or do you just want to mislead everybody on the board - not very helpful or 'community-minded'!!
Originally posted by The Bass Guru
Let it go bruce
What do you mean - do you want people to confuse Bossa Nova lines with Tumbaos?
Are we here to help people with the right thing or what - what are you saying to let go?
Either you're avoiding the one or you're not! You can't have it both ways.
Well, I'm to lazy to provide evidence, so Bruce, you are right, sorry if I mislead anyone.
(BTW I'm right)
(BTW I'm right)
Well I just hope nobody takes you seriously in this kind of thread in future, if that's your attitude!
By the way, it's too lazy! As you are so fond of correcting typos!
You are too lazy to provide an answer!
Thanks Bruce
BTW have you listened to some latin singers such as Celia Cruz, Elvis Crespo, Olga Tanon, la sonora dinamita, some Tito Puente stuff? try to get some of their stuff and listen to the different rhythms, I grew up listening and playing latin stuff such as Salsa, merengue, cha cha cha, cumbia, Huapango etc, All those rhythms are very similar. Oh yeah, that's just my opinion and I don't want to mislead anyone
BTW I was just "pulling your leg" when I corrected your typos, sorry, English is not my first languague so expect a lot of typos from me
BTW have you listened to some latin singers such as Celia Cruz, Elvis Crespo, Olga Tanon, la sonora dinamita, some Tito Puente stuff? try to get some of their stuff and listen to the different rhythms, I grew up listening and playing latin stuff such as Salsa, merengue, cha cha cha, cumbia, Huapango etc, All those rhythms are very similar. Oh yeah, that's just my opinion and I don't want to mislead anyone
BTW I was just "pulling your leg" when I corrected your typos, sorry, English is not my first languague so expect a lot of typos from me
Wel - Salsa is just a generic term - literally Sauce and not a particular type of music - of course it has become known as a dance phenomenon but the music and styles are very different.Originally posted by The Bass Guru
Thanks Bruce
BTW have you listened to some latin singers such as Celia Cruz, Elvis Crespo, Olga Tanon, la sonora dinamita, some Tito Puente stuff? try to get some of their stuff and listen to the different rhythms,
Well this is a bit "patronising" - I have loads of CDs by artists like this - although I thought Tito Puente was a Timbales and vibes player - not a singer!
I grew up listening and playing latin stuff such as Salsa, merengue, cha cha cha, cumbia, Huapango etc, All those rhythms are very similar. Oh yeah, that's just my opinion and I don't want to mislead anyone
Merengue and Salsa are very different - again especialy in the basslines and rhythms. So the typical Salsa bassline is the Tumbao as I said which crosses the bar line avoids the one and anticipates chord changes. Merengue has choppier, but squarer bass lines - no anticipation or avoiding teh one.
I would suggest to you if you are ever going to attempt to play these styles properly that you need to look at decent book to get this right - like :
The Latin Bass book by Oscar Stagnaro
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Study of this will demonstrate the differences between the styles.
So this thread specifically mentions Bossa Novas and I think you want to listen to some of these - like Jobim and Gilberto - they are quiet gentle songs, with sparse guitar and percussion. They often have unusual chord structures with Jazzy harmonies.
Whereas your typical Salsa tune is driving, with a big horn section and often has a Montuno section which is based on a two chord piano vamp and prominent bass - usually no guitar - loud and brassy - it couldn't be more different to your typical Bossa Nova song.
Whereas your typical Salsa tune is driving, with a big horn section and often has a Montuno section which is based on a two chord piano vamp and prominent bass - usually no guitar - loud and brassy - it couldn't be more different to your typical Bossa Nova song.
Bruce (forgive my ignorance), but what is the difference between Samba and Bossa?
Is Bossa a slower, more midtempo thing - e.g. Girl From Ip? Whereas Samba is a more up-tempo, dancey style?
Not a great example - but Jamiroquai's Stillness In Time, I've always considered that this has kind of a samba-ish feel? (I'm not really an expert on Latin music, so I thought I'd pick an example that I know we both know - although obviously it's not a Latin tune).
In the band I used to play with, we did a Jobim tune called "No More Blues", as what I'd call a Samba (maybe that's the wrong term - I'm not sure) - but then it went into a typical Salsa section in the middle. Very up-tempo, piano montuno, 2 chords (Dm7 G7, pretty typical) - brass etc.
Is Bossa a slower, more midtempo thing - e.g. Girl From Ip? Whereas Samba is a more up-tempo, dancey style?
Not a great example - but Jamiroquai's Stillness In Time, I've always considered that this has kind of a samba-ish feel? (I'm not really an expert on Latin music, so I thought I'd pick an example that I know we both know - although obviously it's not a Latin tune).
In the band I used to play with, we did a Jobim tune called "No More Blues", as what I'd call a Samba (maybe that's the wrong term - I'm not sure) - but then it went into a typical Salsa section in the middle. Very up-tempo, piano montuno, 2 chords (Dm7 G7, pretty typical) - brass etc.
Whoa, thanks for your replies!
I jammed with the band yesterday, and I tried the triads and swinging it a bit, some of it worked and some of it didn't, but I've a new set of questions now;
What is the "cut time"? How is it different to 4/4? How do I count it / think about it?
What is this "clave" that's been mentioned?
I have got hold of a few Getz, Jobim and Gilberto tracks - they have helped immensly.
I jammed with the band yesterday, and I tried the triads and swinging it a bit, some of it worked and some of it didn't, but I've a new set of questions now;
What is the "cut time"? How is it different to 4/4? How do I count it / think about it?
What is this "clave" that's been mentioned?
I have got hold of a few Getz, Jobim and Gilberto tracks - they have helped immensly.
