What tone do you send?

[Craig_S]

I run my rig flat, anyway, unless I have a problem with sound on the stage. I give 'em a good DI signal and control the tone with my hands and any pedals (set at unity) I might use for the songs. I've been pleasantly surprised by the live video recordings I've heard. I have no issues with letting the sound man handle the FOH. I know what I'm sending. I'm happy with my tone. His job is to make the band sound good. I let him do his job.

 

[JimmyM]

If you come play around here and have a contract that says that the producer of the show ( probably the one hiring me as a soundman as well) has to hire the crew and is responsible of the sound and lights , well legaly , that would mean that the soundman is in charge of mixing the band , not you. Sorry......

Yeah, we've had a couple soundmen in our time who were like that and pulled that card. I wonder what they're doing now...haven't seen them on any of my gigs in a long time.

 

[EASonBass]

We have our own FOH engineer but we're often at the disadvantage of working under the constraints of a (way) bigger name headliner in terms of number channels we get and such.

Best case we'll both DI and mic the bass so our FOH guy can dial-in what's working best for a particular venue. Our FOH guy will discuss what works best for a given venue with the local sound guy and take that local knowledge into consideration of mic or DI.

If I DI only its a BDDI. I'm an SVT plug and play kinda guy so that works well for me.

I also like having a DI there in case of a mic'd amp failure. I've had it happen more then once and its nice insurance.

 

[JimmyM]

Never said you were stupid , I said that this attitude is stupid.

What's the difference?

 

[dj150888]

What's the difference?

Not much, the latter is just making it less direct to sugar coat it

Anyway, to the point Fokof made,,
Fact is a soundman knows how to make all his bits and pieces work, WE as musicians should know our tone, its up to the soundman to reproduce a bands tone and to make sure the levels are correct, not to decide what the band should sound like. You find soundmen trying to change your tone for 2 reasons - you haven't spent enough time as a band working out your tone or the soundman doesn't know how to do his job properly.

As I said, we've spent a lot of time working out tones that best convey the atmosphere we want to create with our music, why the hell should I let someone whos never spent any time considering these things throw away hours of our hard work? We play with the sound we want or we refuse to work with that soundman again. We're not being given these gigs out of pity, we're providing the entertainment for the night. Why should we do it in a scenario we don't like? We've never had anything but compliments when we run our tone, so call it arrogant or stupid if you will, but when the crowd stops enjoying how we think things should sound, we'll reconsider, not because some poxy two-bit soundman thinks he knows better. Playing with good soundmen is an absolute pleasure and makes it all the easier to refuse to work with clowns like that.

 

[fokof]

What's the difference?

I've read some of your post , you're obviously not a stupid person.
But your attitude toward soundman in general lacks a bit of , how should I put it , .... maturity ?

That's the difference.

One day you'll get it...... maybe

 

[fokof]

As I said, we've spent a lot of time working out tones that best convey the atmosphere we want to create with our music, why the hell should I let someone whos never spent any time considering these things throw away hours of our hard work? We play with the sound we want or we refuse to work with that soundman again. We're not being given these gigs out of pity, we're providing the entertainment for the night. Why should we do it in a scenario we don't like? We've never had anything but compliments when we run our tone, so call it arrogant or stupid if you will, but when the crowd stops enjoying how we think things should sound, we'll reconsider, not because some poxy two-bit soundman thinks he knows better. Playing with good soundmen is an absolute pleasure and makes it all the easier to refuse to work with clowns like that.

A good soundman SHOULD listen to the band or the CD before making any decision on the gear to use. the Target for everyone is to have a good FOH mix , everybody works toward this ultimate goal.
My point is; as a bass player , no soundman is gonna come to me and tell me what notes to play. My job is bass playing , not mixing the FOH.
When I have the soundman hat , no bass player is gonna come and tell me what mic to use. I mix the FOH , he's playin bass.

If a guy comes in with a SVT , and a distorted sound , of course I'll use a mic. Suggesting a DI only would be stupid (oh no , not that word again! ) but if he comes and tell me that I absolutly have to use this mic instead of the one I judge will be the best for that situation , that's where my switch comes off.

 

[dj150888]

A good soundman SHOULD listen to the band or the CD before making any decision on the gear to use. the Target for everyone is to have a good FOH mix , everybody works toward this ultimate goal.
My point is; as a bass player , no soundman is gonna come to me and tell me what notes to play. My job is bass playing , not mixing the FOH.
When I have the soundman hat , no bass player is gonna come and tell me what mic to use. I mix the FOH , he's playin bass.

If a guy comes in with a SVT , and a distorted sound , of course I'll use a mic. Suggesting a DI only would be stupid (oh no , not that word again! ) but if he comes and tell me that I absolutly have to use this mic instead of the one I judge will be the best for that situation , that's where my switch comes off.

If you're the soundman for my band, you'll provide the sound we as a collective ask you for or you won't be hired again, simple as. That includes using particular equipment we prefer, even something as small as a mic. You will judge on different criteria than we will what is best for the situation, but this is our art and one listen through our CD won't show you what we're trying to do.

My job isn't to play bass, its to entertain a crowd with music I've spent a lot of time writing and the tone is as big a part of that as the particular notes, the creation of an atmosphere and mood in the venue, its none of the soundman's business what tone we chose to use as long as its not damaging his equipment or his reputation. You do sound for my band, it'll sound good out front and none of your equipment will be damaged, your opinion doesn't weigh into the equation.

Again, call it whatever you want, but there are plenty of soundmen out there who can do this and do it well more than happy to work for us, so why should we go through the extra grief?

 

[deaf pea]

...But your attitude toward soundman in general lacks a bit of , how should I put it , .... maturity ?

That's the difference.

One day you'll get it...... maybe

What you don't seem to understand is that JimmyM plays bass and is the musical director for THE HEADLINER!
The sound person IS working for the headliner, NOT for the promotor . . .

Part of the contract for our group stipulates that Haragan y Compania will recieve 100% "headliner" status in all propaganda (posters, print adds, radio spots, etc.) and also that H y C has to approve of the sound and lighting equipment rented for the show . . . after all, they're directly working FOR US!
And although they might also provide sound and lights for the other bands, they have a job that night because of the draw of the headliner . . .

I'm just saying, this isn't the situatiion of a cover band playing in a neighborhood bar . . .


.

 

[fokof]

That includes using particular equipment we prefer, even something as small as a mic.

That's exactly what I don't get.
The soundman is supposed to be the person in the band/production/room who has the best experience and knowledge about how to obtain a good result in that particular room/PA etc.....
If you always need to tell soundmans what to do , you either;
-Don't work with good soundmans.
-Have a control problem.....

You will judge on different criteria than we will what is best for the situation,

Exactly and that's my point.
Different jobs , different decisions to make.
Do you , as a bass player , on a given gig , know exactly what the room acoustics are , what the PA sound like , what the other equipement sounds like?
Then If you don't know this , how can you say to your soundman that a 57 is better than a 421 on that given gig/instrument?
If you know those things better than your soundman , you should really change soundman......

 

[SteveC]

I send a pre EQ signal from the built in DI in my head. If they want, I'll use theirs.

 

[JimmyM]

Exactly, dj. The band is what brings people into a venue and gives the soundman a job, and their opinion should always be respected. If it's not, we don't hire them again. I didn't buy a $350 mic for my bass amp to have some soundman tell me it's not good enough for him. Again, I'll always listen to soundmen if they think I'm acting against the band's best interests, but after getting hoodwinked a couple times, I'm done taking any crap from them just because they don't think I should do what I do. My gig, my rules...simple as that.

BTW, I have a gig coming up in December where we have to use the house soundman, and this is a guy who hoodwinked me last year. He says, "Do you mind if I hook up a DI and I'll just blend them? You're getting a little distortion on the low notes of your upright." I told him OK but I'd prefer if you leaned on the mic more than the DI. He had my mic completely off. So in a rare instance, I'm not able to have the guy canned for this upcoming gig. However, I'm bringing the exact same rig, and I will not let him DI me because he lied to me. And if I was able to get rid of him completely, I would. I don't like being treated like some kid who doesn't know what he's doing, and having soundman machinations going on behind my back.

So Fokof, you call that lack of maturity to not allow a soundman to deceive you? You call that lack of maturity that I want my super badass mic that I paid a small fortune for instead of a $50 DI? Great, then I'm immature, and you can go tell all your soundman buddies about what an a-hole I am. But what I say goes. The day that a soundman draws people to our gigs is the day they can be in charge of me. Until then, I'm in charge, and if you don't like it, don't take the gig.

 

[Craig_S]

The sound man, regardless of "my tone", is going to EQ for the venue and do what HE sees as best for the overall; not for "my tone". The best we can hope for is to have a good sound man who is familiar enough with the genre to make it sound right. Nit picking, being pushy, or bitching about it isn't going to help anything.

If I was running sound, and someone came to me with any sort of attitude, I would smile, agree with him, then proceed to make him sound like complete GANK.

 

[fokof]

Part of the contract for our group stipulates that Haragan y Compania will recieve 100% "headliner" status in all propaganda (posters, print adds, radio spots, etc.) and also that H y C has to approve of the sound and lighting equipment rented for the show . . . after all, they're directly working FOR US!
And although they might also provide sound and lights for the other bands, they have a job that night because of the draw of the headliner
.

I'M a bass player (bsicaly) a soundman and I'm also doin ( I don't know the right therm in english) some pre production for a festival as the "technical director". We get acts from all around the world , I'm in it right now.
So I'm the one receiving the "riders" from the band , and checking everything out to see if the demands and the contracts fits the bill , technicaly speaking.
So I'm very well aware of all those things.

A band's rider is always suggestive. They stated ; "We want 105db a the desk , the desk should not be under a balcony ... bla bla , want PA like Meyer , Adamson, Heil , etc... No behringer... bla bla bla"
These are always suggestions.
If you play to a house that has an under balcony board ,the band will have to deal with it. They are not gonna renovate the hall because of that demand......

And the patch I receive , is suggestive too. If the band sends a rider and ask for a B52 on the kick and the place only has a 902 , that's what it's gonna be. Particularly true if thay don't have their soundman.

Very big acts comes with their sound system and sound crew. This does not apply.


In general what I say is; if you want the soundman to use the stuff you want them to use , hire yours.
Or else , deal with it.

 

[fokof]

So Fokof, you call that lack of maturity to not allow a soundman to deceive you? You call that lack of maturity that I want my super badass mic that I paid a small fortune for instead of a $50 DI? Great, then I'm immature, and you can go tell all your soundman buddies about what an a-hole I am. But what I say goes. The day that a soundman draws people to our gigs is the day they can be in charge of me. Until then, I'm in charge, and if you don't like it, don't take the gig.

The question is ; did the gig sounded good ?
If it sounded good then yes , the soundman did a good decision by taking a $10 DI instead of a $200000 mic.......

 

[JimmyM]

The sound man, regardless of "my tone", is going to EQ for the venue and do what HE sees as best for the overall; not for "my tone". The best we can hope for is to have a good sound man who is familiar enough with the genre to make it sound right. Nit picking, being pushy, or bitching about it isn't going to help anything.

If I was running sound, and someone came to me with any sort of attitude, I would smile, agree with him, then proceed to make him sound like complete GANK.

Craig, you're a nice guy, but if you ever did that to me, not only would it be the last gig you ever ran sound for my band, but I would consider that license to badmouth you to anyone who would listen, and word travels fast in my scene. Gank me, and I'll gank you back somewhere down the line. So the choice is yours...

 

[JimmyM]

I'M a bass player (bsicaly) a soundman and I'm also doin ( I don't know the right therm in english) some pre production for a festival as the "technical director". We get acts from all around the world , I'm in it right now.
So I'm the one receiving the "riders" from the band , and checking everything out to see if the demands and the contracts fits the bill , technicaly speaking.
So I'm very well aware of all those things.

A band's rider is always suggestive. They stated ; "We want 105db a the desk , the desk should not be under a balcony ... bla bla , want PA like Meyer , Adamson, Heil , etc... No behringer... bla bla bla"
These are always suggestions.
If you play to a house that has an under balcony board ,the band will have to deal with it. They are not gonna renovate the hall because of that demand......

And the patch I receive , is suggestive too. If the band sends a rider and ask for a B52 on the kick and the place only has a 902 , that's what it's gonna be. Particularly true if thay don't have their soundman.

Very big acts comes with their sound system and sound crew. This does not apply.

In general what I say is; if you want the soundman to use the stuff you want them to use , hire yours.
Or else , deal with it.

Or a third option...call off the show 4 hours before the start time and threaten to sue the promoter because they lied about fulfilling our technical rider. You'll see how quickly that sound company finds a B52. We had a promoter move the soundman to the side of the stage at a ballroom convention gig we did because the client didn't want a soundboard in the middle of the room. Bowzer came in, and told them in no uncertain terms that if the soundman wasn't in the back of the room so he could hear FOH that there would be no show. Guess where the board was for the show?

Honestly, whether it's your own crew or you're hired by the promoter, if you're a headliner, what you say goes. You can either respect that or you can be obstinate. Being obstinate never works out for anyone, so my advice is to know your role and don't pull any funny stuff.

 

[deaf pea]

...Very big acts comes with their sound system and sound crew...

I wouldn't call us a "Very big act", but this IS what we do here in Mexico . . . we always use the same (rented) equipment . . . stage, sound and lights . . .

While on tour in the USA, we use what the venue/promotor supplies . . . but each gig is OK'd separately as to what they offer . . .


.

 

[JimmyM]

The question is ; did the gig sounded good ?
If it sounded good then yes , the soundman did a good decision by taking a $10 DI instead of a $200000 mic.......

Bullcrap! The soundman is not the final arbiter of what sounds good. We are. When you start selling tickets for everyone to see Fokof the Great run sound, then you'll have some clout on my gigs. If that bothers you, don't take the gig.

 

[JimmyM]

I wouldn't call us a "Very big act", but this IS what we do here in Mexico . . . we always use the same (rented) equipment . . . stage, sound and lights . . .

While on tour in the USA, we use what the venue/promotor supplies . . . but each gig is OK'd separately as to what they offer . . .


.

We don't have that luxury. We're not making enough money to hire our own sound crew to travel with us around the country. But we're the ones selling tickets (well, Bowzer is and we work for him, so it's "we" by default), so it's in everyone's best interests if the sound company gives us what we want and doesn't try to interfere with it or trick us.