I'm pretty sure the TB rules about discussing religion also apply to anti-religion.
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What would you think about....
- Thread starter Marlat
- Start date
Without reading through this whole thing, I'll say my opinion as a parent of two: I have no problem with it.
Why not presume that the kids are smart enough to figure things out for themselves? They might see a billboard like this and CHOOSE to believe what they like.
I've always answered my kids questions about Santa with another question: "What do YOU think?". Since they were old enough to form sentences, that's my approach. I don't tell them what to believe, I teach them how to listen, learn, and think.
Why not presume that the kids are smart enough to figure things out for themselves? They might see a billboard like this and CHOOSE to believe what they like.
I've always answered my kids questions about Santa with another question: "What do YOU think?". Since they were old enough to form sentences, that's my approach. I don't tell them what to believe, I teach them how to listen, learn, and think.
Words mean what they mean, and using the proper word even if it makes others uncomfortable is a hallmark of intellectual honesty. Your issue is with the dictionary, not me.
Life is much more nuanced than that. I have no issues with the dictionary. I do have issues with people hiding behind false dichotomies and claiming the intellectual high-ground, however.
Respectfully, that's your opinion and you are welcome to it.
I'm interested in what "nuance" you think makes the act of intentionally convincing someone of the truth of something which you know to be untrue is not a lie. If you want to argue it's harmless or inconsequential or all in good fun or whatever then that's one thing. But let's not claim it to be something it isn't.
That's what I did with my kids, and that's what my parents did with me. Left to their own devices, kids naturally fall into these beliefs.
Some beliefs are harmful and parents should correct them (like "you can get pregnant by holding hands and kissing").
Others, like Santa, seem relatively innocuous.
I guess if you promote this belief in an effort to hold it over your kids head every chance you get ("I got a direct line to Santa, you're getting NOTHING for Christmas!") that could get a little unhealthy. But even that only works within a few weeks of Christmas Day.
We also always have gifts from Mom and Dad (and all other family members) in addition to one or two from Santa, so the lesson about "giving" is firmly in place, I can assure you.
Kids should have room to fantasize. Raise your kids however you want, but criticism of other parenting styles is always a slippery slope. I won't critique you guys who tell your kids there is no Santa, that's your business.* It would be fair for you to show us other parents the same level of respect.
(*Until you turn asshat and post it on a billboard.)
You proceed from a false assumption. My wife and I never did "all gifts are from Santa". There were gifts from us to our daughter and a "special" gift or two from Santa.
But that's the thing, pretty much when kids stop believing in Santa and ask, most parents don't deny it and scream "No no Santa IS real!" which is basically what you claim of imposition would suggest.
I would prefer you get familiar with what it means to set up false dichotomies and or straw man arguments before I even try to engage you in a discussion on the many, many levels of wrong in your gambit.
So how do yoo feel knowing that your parents "intentionally misled " you? I grew up with "santa", now my kids have. Soon their kids will. Everybody's reasonably well adjusted in spite of it. Why make it all evil?? You don't want to do it, that's cool too.
As far as the billboard question. I'm a 1st amendment supporter. I'd rather explain to my kids (or grandkids) why there are jerks in the work than tell them they can't express themselves.
Yup. I've yet to meet a single person who thought their parents were evil for bringing Santa into their home as a child. I've also yet to meet someone who claims to be emotionally, socially, or any other kind of -ially scared from believing in Santa as a kid.
The best way to refute a point is to pretend it's so invalid as to not need debate. Oh wait, no it's not...
You folks are reading wayyyyyy too much into what I said here. I never said deceiving your kids about Santa was evil or did some huge psychological damage or anything like that. I'm merely pointing out that 1. it is lying & 2. it's ridiculous hyperbole to claim that not telling your kid there is a Santa destroys their imagination.
Ummm, so if you lie to a person, and years later they call you on it and you then admit it was in fact a lie, then it's not actually a lie in the first place? Interesting logic you have there.
This is why the words Just and Kidding were first put together, me thinks.
"I said just kidding, its not a lie!"
I remember using that one once as a child.
all words have positive and negative connotations. there are many synonyms and even qualifiers like 'little white lie' to handle nuance. have you ever had to answer an awkward question like 'do these pants make my butt look big?' please note, i use this example only because it is the obligatory, cliched example of why it is ok to mislead people a little bit sometimes in some circumstances. consider how much money eric clapton made off the statement 'you look wonderful tonite.' and yes, for the most part it is harmless.
but i agree with you, this issue seems far more built up and contentious than i would expect. i don't see where anyone has posted, however, that if you deny the santa-story to your kids you have destroyed their imagination. i think there is plenty of room for layers of grey here.
as for claiming it to be something it is not... have you considered how much we lie to ourselves regularly? look down, how often do you think about the children in the sweatshops that made the clothes and shoes you are most likely wearing? do you think about it when you go buy a bag of way-too-cheap socks? do you think about the meat-packing industry, the slaughter, the disease, the systematic oppression of undocumented workers when you pick up the nice, clean piece of meat packed in the plastic wrap? how about pron? do you think about the sex-slave industry and human trafficking involved. the runaway teen girls that are purposefully addicted to drugs and lied to so they will remain in effective bondage to the industry? kinda takes the fun and fantasy out of it.
the world can be seen as a very, very dark place. heck, if i am gonna go this far, how bout the fact that we humans are such a tiny little blip in the grand scheme of the cosmos that really there is no point whatsoever to getting up and going to work each day. what a total waste of your time!
i think people need hope. and no, santa is not required for hope. it can come from many different places. but i bet wherever one finds it, it includes some level of 'lie.'
have a nice day!
all words have positive and negative connotations. there are many synonyms and even qualifiers like 'little white lie' to handle nuance. have you ever had to answer an awkward question like 'do these pants make my butt look big?' please note, i use this example only because it is the obligatory, cliched example of why it is ok to mislead people a little bit sometimes in some circumstances. consider how much money eric clapton made off the statement 'you look wonderful tonite.' and yes, for the most part it is harmless.
but i agree with you, this issue seems far more built up and contentious than i would expect. i don't see where anyone has posted, however, that if you deny the santa-story to your kids you have destroyed their imagination. i think there is plenty of room for layers of grey here.
as for claiming it to be something it is not... have you considered how much we lie to ourselves regularly? look down, how often do you think about the children in the sweatshops that made the clothes and shoes you are most likely wearing? do you think about it when you go buy a bag of way-too-cheap socks? do you think about the meat-packing industry, the slaughter, the disease, the systematic oppression of undocumented workers when you pick up the nice, clean piece of meat packed in the plastic wrap? how about pron? do you think about the sex-slave industry and human trafficking involved. the runaway teen girls that are purposefully addicted to drugs and lied to so they will remain in effective bondage to the industry? kinda takes the fun and fantasy out of it.
the world can be seen as a very, very dark place. heck, if i am gonna go this far, how bout the fact that we humans are such a tiny little blip in the grand scheme of the cosmos that really there is no point whatsoever to getting up and going to work each day. what a total waste of your time!
i think people need hope. and no, santa is not required for hope. it can come from many different places. but i bet wherever one finds it, it includes some level of 'lie.'
have a nice day!
So we should ignore sex trafficking and other horrific crimes so it doesn't make us feel bad?
I suppose it's at least honest of you to admit that, but it's still reprehensible.
Unrepresented
Something Borderline Offensive
Bringing Santa into a child's life isn't evil, but avoiding lying to your children IMO is morally superior and arguably healthier.LSquared said:
Personally, I remember feeling the whole Santa thing was condescending when my parents would attempt it. Note: I was an odd kid.
It felt condescending once I had figured out the truth, though was asked to perpetuate the myth for my baby brother.
Even long after that I still always got a gift from "Santa".
If Santa was not part of our culture, I might feel differently. But I was born into a country where Santa was a part of the culture and so were my kids. So my decision was whether to play along with it or blow the whistle. In Australia we have a parallel for that. Some people copying American movies are starting to do Halloween type things and we are discussing whether it's a good thing. Where as to most of you Americans, you probably cannot imagine a world without Halloween.
If you want to say "It's lying and deception" to play along with Santa...well I will agree it's an untruth. The debate here should be whether it's a good thing or bad thing to perpetuate the untruth. I don't like the word lying because of its negative vibe.
I return to my earlier post where I talked about dreams. If I am going to be totally focussed in saying what is actually demonstrably factual, I am going to be stomping on dreams. IMO there is a grey area between factual truth and deceptive untruth. If you don't agree with that you won't agree with whatever else I am arguing.
If you want to say "It's lying and deception" to play along with Santa...well I will agree it's an untruth. The debate here should be whether it's a good thing or bad thing to perpetuate the untruth. I don't like the word lying because of its negative vibe.
I return to my earlier post where I talked about dreams. If I am going to be totally focussed in saying what is actually demonstrably factual, I am going to be stomping on dreams. IMO there is a grey area between factual truth and deceptive untruth. If you don't agree with that you won't agree with whatever else I am arguing.
