What's 20 Hz worth?

[Mk90]

I n̶e̶e̶d̶ want a tiny practice cab mainly for a small acoustic practice situation and I found a nice deal from a local cab builder that I want to support. I know that the tiny pjb combos probably would be the answer but I really want to get a cab from this particular builder.

The problem is that there are two choices at the same price. One is a cab that has advertised response to be 60-4 000 Hz which definately sounds passable for bedroom practice even with a 5 string that I mainly play. The other cab is a frfr type double cone cab that has 80-15 000 Hz response that I can see myself regularly using for other stuff also. The main use would still be 95% of the time just to play my 5-string, but I could definately see myself using it for monitoring either vocals or acoustic guitar in smaller gigs or even as a studio monitor.

I know there are other things affecting the end result, but for this hypotethical situation where I can't test the cabs before buying, would those missing 20 Hz bother you for bass playing?

 

[beans-on-toast]

You hear the 20Hz harmonics so you won’t tonally miss out on the lack of the fundamental.

 

[Mk90]

You hear the 20Hz harmonics so you won’t tonally miss out on the lack of the fundamental.

Yes, that is true. I'm mostly talking about the frfr cab being rated for 80 Hz at it's lowest, so I'm missing out some of the harmonics from my B-string.

 

[beans-on-toast]

Yes, that is true. I'm mostly talking about the frfr cab being rated for 80 Hz at it's lowest, so I'm missing out some of the harmonics from my B-string.

But the harmonics are above 80Hz so I see you are being covered. You also have to take builder’s specs with a grain of salt.

 

[ardgedee]

By "missing 20 Hz" do you mean the fundamental frequency of 20 Hz, or a range of frequencies from 60-80 Hz?

There is not enough information to provide any kind of useful advice. Among the many things we don't know about these cabs is the slope of the low end rolloff. It's possible (not necessarily likely, just possible) that the cab with a 80-15K Hz effective frequency range has a more gradual and even cut off of low frequencies, so it could have a more even response from 40-80 Hz than the other cab and effectively sound louder in the 40-60 Hz range.

 

[jj.833]

You should know that there is no exact norm for frequency range measurement. Even if there were - and every company would be the paramount of honesty - these numbers wouldn't mean much on itself. There's much more info needed to describe the qualities of a cab. Actually, there's so much info needed that it's way easier just to travel to the shop and try yourself. If you can't try, ask the company for advice. I'd guess that small local builder would be eager to inform you.

From these numbers I can read that 60-4000 Hz would be a cab with low frequency driver, while 80-15000 Hz would be a cab with LF driver and HF driver too. High frequencies (=ca 2000-10000 Hz) are unimportant regarding tone color, but are extremely important to hear the short attacks of your tones - the transients. The transients tell you whether your dynamics and timing is really spot on, as well as make your sound shiny. In my experience, at bedroom volumes, just about every cab has enough lows.

Myself, I'm interested in small amps. Most manufacturers present the frequency range starting about 50 Hz. For example PJB C4 declares the 4x5" cab start at 30 Hz. I like PJB, but I find this information very hard to believe, based on my attempt to design a 4x5" cab. Send this info to your manufacturer and judge his arguments. I'd be interested in it too, if you'd be willing to drop the conversation here.

 

[Ric Vice]

The only cabinet I've ever owned that went below 50Hz was built by Euphonic Audio. The specs for the VL 208 were

VL208
40Hz-18Khz
99db sensitivity It weighed 48 lbs. The cabinet had two 8" Drivers two 5.5 Midrange speakers and a 3.5 " Tweeter with
several crossovers. The low end response was tremendous if you were standing on the stage near the cabinet, but
as you moved out into the audience, it would naturally be less effective. It had a transmission line design similar
to the Bose Wave. To drive that cabinet took a hefty amount of power. At the time I was using a 800 watt (RMS into 8 ohms)
Walter Woods Electroacoustic amp. Frankly it wasn't worth the weight of the cabinet to get those lows.

 

[5StringBlues]

He's talking about a cab that does to 60 vs a cab that goes to 80.



He's not talking about 20hz.

 

[5StringBlues]

Yeah, it’s not like 20hz was in the thread title or anything….

Misleading thread title of the year.

 

[BassNugget]

My Fender Rumble 100 doesn't put out much below 80hz. It sounds great with the B string. A well designed cab or combo will sound good.

My 210 cab digs into the 40's. It is not really any better sounding on the B, just louder.

 

[brianrost]

would those missing 20 Hz bother you for bass playing?

Absolutely not.

Consider the notes that actually have fundamentals below 60Hz and 80Hz (all rounded to whole numbers):

Open B 31
...
Open E 41
...
Open A 55
A# 58
B 62
...
Open D 73
D# 78
E 82
...
Open G 98

Since the first harmonic is the octave (multiply the frequency by 2), even with a weak fundamental, all the harmonics will be audible if the speaker can reproduce 60Hz (for a bass with a low B) or 80Hz with E the lowest string.

 

[31HZ]

For what you're using it for, either cab would be fine.

 

[Mk90]

Yes I now see how the title is misleading sorry about that. Maybea better one would be something like "Am I going to miss losing those 20 Hz?" But that's what you get sometimes for not being a native speaker.

I've messaged about the cabs, but he builder is currently on vacation, so I'm still waiting for the frequency curves and more accurate specs.

From these numbers I can read that 60-4000 Hz would be a cab with low frequency driver, while 80-15000 Hz would be a cab with LF driver and HF driver too. High frequencies (=ca 2000-10000 Hz) are unimportant regarding tone color, but are extremely important to hear the short attacks of your tones - the transients. The transients tell you whether your dynamics and timing is really spot on, as well as make your sound shiny. In my experience, at bedroom volumes, just about every cab has enough lows.

Thank you for this. I figured the frfr is probably the one I'm going to get but I'm just unsure and kind of thinking aloud. Just kind of probing for opinions because if someone said that gaining those claimed extra Hz in the low end would be vastly superior for the intended use of being mainly a for bass then I would happily forget the extra functionality with full range.

 

[TTA]

I n̶e̶e̶d̶ want a tiny practice cab mainly for a small acoustic practice situation and I found a nice deal from a local cab builder that I want to support. I know that the tiny pjb combos probably would be the answer but I really want to get a cab from this particular builder.

The problem is that there are two choices at the same price. One is a cab that has advertised response to be 60-4 000 Hz which definately sounds passable for bedroom practice even with a 5 string that I mainly play. The other cab is a frfr type double cone cab that has 80-15 000 Hz response that I can see myself regularly using for other stuff also. The main use would still be 95% of the time just to play my 5-string, but I could definately see myself using it for monitoring either vocals or acoustic guitar in smaller gigs or even as a studio monitor.

I know there are other things affecting the end result, but for this hypotethical situation where I can't test the cabs before buying, would those missing 20 Hz bother you for bass playing?

To date i have never bought a cab i could not listen too/play through first. Actually… i ordered one without testing and i was disappointed. With a ton of unknowns here, i would be especially weary/curious about the 60-4000hz.

I like to support local also… but imho dont go custom unless you can test first.

But to answer your question, i doubt you would notice the 60-80hz loss. But the 4000 to 15000 you would notice. Still there is a lot of devil in the details in your scenario.

 

[And I]

You're overthinking. How do they sound at the volume you'd be playing them at? Which do you like better? Let your ears decide. The specs don't tell you anything but some scientific measurements that are at best irrelevant for your use case and at worst lies told by the cab manufacturer's marketing team.

 

[two fingers]

No.

I’ve played bass and worked in Pro Audio the most part of my 64 years.

20hz is a fun topic at parties and certain geeky-type circles, but useless for making music.

I think he was referring to the range between 60 and 80....not producing the fundamental of 20.

 

[Ewo]

OP, I think the question for you to ponder is how important the response above 4K Hz is to you. If, like me, 4K is as bright as you need to go, it seems the cab that'll go a bit deeper is what you want with a fiver.

 

[bassdude51]

Too many bass cabs and speakers struggle with 41 hz specs (open E). Never heard of a bass cab or bass speakers doing 20 hz. In fact, many and most hi fi fidelity stereo speakers won't do 20 hz. Why even consider this? Isn't 20 hz about the limit of the human ear?

 

[micguy]

Too many bass cabs and speakers struggle with 41 hz specs (open E). Never heard of a bass cab or bass speakers doing 20 hz. In fact, many and most hi fi fidelity stereo speakers won't do 20 hz. Why even consider this? Isn't 20 hz about the limit of the human ear?

You missed the point of the OP's post - he's talking about two speakers which have cutoff frequencies that differ by 20 Hz.

 

[Ric5]

I n̶e̶e̶d̶ want a tiny practice cab mainly for a small acoustic practice situation and I found a nice deal from a local cab builder that I want to support. I know that the tiny pjb combos probably would be the answer but I really want to get a cab from this particular builder.

The problem is that there are two choices at the same price. One is a cab that has advertised response to be 60-4 000 Hz which definately sounds passable for bedroom practice even with a 5 string that I mainly play. The other cab is a frfr type double cone cab that has 80-15 000 Hz response that I can see myself regularly using for other stuff also. The main use would still be 95% of the time just to play my 5-string, but I could definately see myself using it for monitoring either vocals or acoustic guitar in smaller gigs or even as a studio monitor.

I know there are other things affecting the end result, but for this hypotethical situation where I can't test the cabs before buying, would those missing 20 Hz bother you for bass playing?

the frequency response is a curve ... that means below 60hz the speaker will drop off some of that frequency. It is not the same as a high pass filter.