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What's it like to suck?

#21
Of course the flip side of all this are the guys who are awesome musicians, but they have no ego at all. I play with a guitarist who knows music theory and plays like a virtuoso on guitar, drums, keyboards, and bass. He's confident, but he has no ego and is one of the easiest guys to play with...he's willing to admit screw ups and take suggestions.

Before I joined the band, many said his nickname was the "music nazi" because he was so anal about playing things perfectly. After I joined the band, I found that the nickname was undeserved. He does care about playing music as perfectly as possible, but realizes everyone makes mistakes and he's the easiest musician to get along with that I've ever played with.

But I've played with guys who think they are the greatest thing around, yet haven't got a clue what being a good musician is all about. Far too many of those guys...and far too few good musicians without egos.
 
#24
Dave Grossman said:
Here's an article that I think will explain this phenomenon:

Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments

- Dave
Click to expand...

Haha, I read that article a couple of years ago. I'm doing research on self-perceptions of middle school students and it was something I ran across. Ok, back to topic.

Quick thoughts, if you suck at something, you might:

self-handicap so you can't actually blame a lack of ability: I would've played better if I didn't go out last night and get smashed/get smashed while playing/etc.

selectively discount other's feedback: I don't care if the people at the club think we suck, they have no taste anyway.

externalize problems: It's not me, it's the band/soundman/crappy bass.

change your "reference group": Well, I'm a heck of a lot better than that guy I saw at Guitar Center so I've gotta be pretty good.

change your motivations/self-identification: I'm not trying to be popular with the kids, I am an artist...I don't imprison myself within key or time signatures...It's not like I want to be on the radio anyway. Or more reasonably, just decide that being a good musician is not all that important to you.

I think of the above things as ways of protecting one's self. It's interesting to me of all the things people will do, no matter the age.

another result is...(fingers crossed)...

quit playing so you stop making the rest of us look bad. JUST KIDDING!

work hard to improve, view your current sucktitude not as a permanent thing, but something that you can build from. Negative feedback is not something that shakes you down to your foundation but also isn't something you completely ignore either.

ok, maybe it wasn't a good idea for me to visit Talkbass in the hopes that I could not think about research for a little while!

Marshall
 
#25
Heh, yeh.
There's a kid at my school like that, thinks he's a god an all... Thing is, so does everyone else... Even the people that are in the small music community know ver little and when they see him play one of his little licks or solo's they're like, wow, that guy is amazing.
But really he can't string a song together, he has no idea of structure or general composition really. And he ain't a team player, he kinda has the attitude drummers generally have (plays for himself, you know) I guess it's just annoying when people (and himself) think he's amazing, when it's obvious to anyone with a small amount of experience he isn't...
Ahem, yes well anyway...

I guess really if you know you suck, then you have nothing to worry about. Our band basically decided that nothing we ever said would be funny and anything we ever played would probably suck...once we were content with that the pressure kinda got lifted a bit and really if someone says we suck we'll ask them why? And then say, okay cool, thanx dude.
But really you gotta motivate each other in the band and you've really gotta kinda be open. Our lead guitarist is the hardest guy to work with, he's very picky and has weird expectations in everything (style, form etc.) We've been through 3 rhythm guitarists who've all quit cos of him and i've come close too...
Rob
 
#26
Through the years, I have learned a few things about bands, and musicians in general.

1. Nobody really believes they themself as a musician, or their own band sucks. This is regardless of their true level of sucktitude.

2. No matter how bad you actually do suck, you will still have plenty of people telling you that you are awesome. Some of the suckiest bands I have ever heard still have people during, and after the gig saying you are the best thing since the beatles. This contributes to point number one.

3. For every GOOD band or musician, I can find 100 that suck.

4. You probably suck too.
 
#27
Tim Cole said:
Through the years, I have learned a few things about bands, and musicians in general.

1. Nobody really believes they themself as a musician, or their own band sucks. This is regardless of their true level of sucktitude.
Click to expand...
Sucktitude - Awesome word.

2. No matter how bad you actually do suck, you will still have plenty of people telling you that you are awesome. Some of the suckiest bands I have ever heard still have people during, and after the gig saying you are the best thing since the beatles. This contributes to point number one.
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Mainly their friends making them not want to feel bad.

3. For every GOOD band or musician, I can find 100 that suck.
Click to expand...
I see you found my highschool...

4. You probably suck too.
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Yea...:hmm:



Anyways, I've seen plenty of crappy bands around here and in the end they all break up and stop playing. Just gotta let the suckiness run its cycle.
 
#28
Witty-Name said:
...he ain't a team player, he kinda has the attitude drummers generally have (plays for himself, you know)...
Click to expand...
Ouch.

Drummers are always best at knowing how to load stuff into the truck, though. I think in every band I've ever worked with, the drummer stands in the truck, and and calls-out what to put up on the tailgate next.

Joe
 
#29
Joe P said:
Drummers are always best at knowing how to load stuff into the truck, though. I think in every band I've ever worked with, the drummer stands in the truck, and and calls-out what to put up on the tailgate next.
Click to expand...
My drummer is the same way. He was using his mom's small jeep to transport his set to our guitarist's house and he picked me up with my amp on the way and somehow, he managed to figure out a way to fit it all in, but barely.
 
#30
My old band sucked...

The guitarist was like "omg, i style myself after hendrix..." and the drummer was like "but but but... all my beats are influenced by bill ward!!11!!!11!!1!1!" *Cue 8ths on hi-hat, snare on 2-4, kick on 1-3"


it was horrible. i left.
 
#31
Well a lot of bands start out with punk because it's so easy to play, it's mainly attitude.

That article from the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology describes a lot of musicians I know. Isn't it odd that most of the truely great musicians you will run into in your life have the best attitudes and outlooks on things (or did at one time)? There is a reason for that and a lot of similarities between the sucessful ones in thier attitudes and approach. I was once told if you want to be a millionare you have to see what sucessful people do in their lives and adapt some of those skills and attitudes, same goes for music.
 
#33
Da LadY In Red said:
I've recently heard some bands from the local scene that I'd consider to be less than average bands.
Click to expand...
I have yet to see more than a few 'above average' band in our region. I'd love to hear a great band.

Anyone know one of those particularily terrible "screeching" local punk/emo bands that play the same "punk" beat EVERY song, have dumb lyrics about wanting to kill themself, terrible guitar work.
Click to expand...
ONE?! Know one? That's all I ever run into around here. That's all that's out there these days, apparently.

What's it like to make music that is just god awful?
Click to expand...
apparently it's a WHOLE lotta fun, cuz they sure like to jump around and stuff.
In fact, I think jumping around is more important than sounding good, from all indications.

What I want to know is "What is it like not to know a band sucks?"
The kids around here eat that stuff up. They love it. They think it's the height of musical accomplishment. They generally have no clue if a band sucks or not.
 
#36
Being not very good or "sucking" is not all that bad. The expectations placed on you by others are very low and you get an easy laugh out of all the other people out there that THINK they don't suck and have the credentials to lay that label on others. After all isn't determining what sucks and what doesn't just a matter of opinion. You know what they say about opinions, they are like a$$holes everybodys got one!
 
#37
mwm70 said:
...After all isn't determining what sucks and what doesn't just a matter of opinion? You know what they say about opinions...
Click to expand...
No. Whatever style of music, or interpretation of a song or whatever, it has to be performed with a certain authority and sureness on the part of each musician's control of his instrument; and there has to be some sort of 'connection' between the musicians in a band. Even with music that's considered to be 'textural' or 'ambient' - that is, supposedly 'grooveless' - there has to be at least a certain kind of awareness - an awareness that, when it reaches a high level, even seems to be a sort of metaphysical connection - between the musicians performing. I certainly hope we ALL know this!

Playing sloppily, tentitively, out-of tune, and things like that TRULY, truly suck. Sucktitude exists - it's real. If you suck for the reasons detailed above, you really DO suck; it's not that someone who thinks so 'just doesn't understand you'.

Then there's the other side of the coin. There's Guns n' Roses, for example, who are all abviously, no doubt experts and true pros. Most of us could learn much about music and the music buisness from that band. But they SUCK! Eesch - that's one of the only bands that will get me to dive to a radio knob to avoid hearing the very next note. But that's only my opinion, of course.

Joe
 
#38
Sundogue said:
Of course the flip side of all this are the guys who are awesome musicians, but they have no ego at all. I play with a guitarist who knows music theory and plays like a virtuoso on guitar, drums, keyboards, and bass. He's confident, but he has no ego and is one of the easiest guys to play with...he's willing to admit screw ups and take suggestions.

Before I joined the band, many said his nickname was the "music nazi" because he was so anal about playing things perfectly. After I joined the band, I found that the nickname was undeserved. He does care about playing music as perfectly as possible, but realizes everyone makes mistakes and he's the easiest musician to get along with that I've ever played with.

But I've played with guys who think they are the greatest thing around, yet haven't got a clue what being a good musician is all about. Far too many of those guys...and far too few good musicians without egos.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I know just what you are saying.
A friend of mine is really an amazing musician. A great guitarist and a succsessful(bah) songwriter. He writes songs for lots of big tv-series and so on. But still it took him like an half year of jamming with us before he stopped being nervous.....
 
#39
No. Whatever style of music, or interpretation of a song or whatever, it has to be performed with a certain authority and sureness on the part of each musician's control of his instrument; and there has to be some sort of 'connection' between the musicians in a band. Even with music that's considered to be 'textural' or 'ambient' - that is, supposedly 'grooveless' - there has to be at least a certain kind of awareness - an awareness that, when it reaches a high level, even seems to be a sort of metaphysical connection - between the musicians performing. I certainly hope we ALL know this!

Playing sloppily, tentitively, out-of tune, and things like that TRULY, truly suck. Sucktitude exists - it's real. If you suck for the reasons detailed above, you really DO suck; it's not that someone who thinks so 'just doesn't understand you'.

Then there's the other side of the coin. There's Guns n' Roses, for example, who are all abviously, no doubt experts and true pros. Most of us could learn much about music and the music buisness from that band. But they SUCK! Eesch - that's one of the only bands that will get me to dive to a radio knob to avoid hearing the very next note. But that's only my opinion, of course.
Based on your criteria listed above, how can GNR suck? I am not a fan of their music, but I have seen them live. They were in tune, were not hesitant or sloppy and seemed to be feeding of one another or connecting as they played. Even the intrepretation of songs that were not theirs filled this criteria. If you are making this judgement based on musicianship or ability, I must have missed something here also. While there is not a Mozart in the bunch, GNR does have accomplished musicians (The bass player actually writes interesting lines compared to others in the same genre). So my assumption is that you are labeling them as "sucking" based on your preference of what sounds good not their ability or peformance. Again your opinion of what you like.
All bands have to start somewhere. I cringe when I listen to some of my first live and studio recordings. I was fortunate enough to have established local musicians give my band at the time an opportunity to learn (on stage), grow and in turn get better. As a community (musicians/bassists) we need to support one another and not be maliciously critical. By doing so we will not only improve individually but it will allow our local scenes to prosper.
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#40
I read that article again. It reminds me of this singer I know. He always talks down other bands and always says he is better. The fact of the matter is he is tone deaf and has a very non musical voice, also he hits bad notes constantly. This guy worries more about stage lights, vocal effects and processors, wireless mics and monitors, and fog machines then the actual product he is putting out there. I like my vocals dry, I use only a mild distortion if the cover calls for it, I am a plug in and play kind of play, no gimmics! After reading the article it describes this guy a lot! The fact that he can't recodnize his own issues and underestimates other bands is ironic. He uses all these gimmics to mask what is going on and his own inabilities, poor fool!
 

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