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Whats "Minor" about a 2nd?

#21
slybass3000 said:
It has to do with the distance between two notes in a scale or in a key. A major second is a whole-tone and a minor second is a semi-tone. That's all.
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This ^

An Interval is the distance between two pitches.
A Minor 2nd is one such interval. It is the same thing as a Semi-tone.(one fret)

Most scales are built from formula using Minor and Major 2nds.

m2 = minor 2nd M2 = Major 2nd
C - D - E - F - G - A - B - C
-M2-M2-m2-M2-M2-M2-m2-


Most chords are built in minor and major 3rds.

A Major 7 chord is built...
C - E - G - B
-M3-m3-M3-

A Minor 7 chord is built...
C - Eb - G - Bb -
-m3 -M3 -m3-
 
#25
Richard Lindsey said:
Yes, because it's not a 2nd unless you use Db. And yes, an augmented unison is in fact an entire half-step away, by definition, but it's not and never can be a minor 2nd.

Practical difference aside, this is a matter of accurate nomenclature. Everybody knows that in the tempered 12 tone system we mostly use, C# and Db are treated as enharmonic equivalents and there is a half-step between C and C# just as there is between C and Db. But one is a minor 2nd and the other is an augmented unison. For an interval to be a 2nd, of any kind, the two notes must have two different (and adjacent) letter names (with G-A of course counting as adjacent in this context). If two notes making up an interval have the same letter name and are in the same register, that interval must be a unison of some kind, even if the notes are physically a half-step apart.

That's just how it is. That's what these things are by definition. Understanding these kinds of differences will help you understand other things.
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i have to disagree, regardless of what the 'establishment' says. an augmented unison of that type is in itself a contradiction. if the interval is large enough for the higher note to function as an independent melodic step (like a minor 2nd), it is no longer a unison. a comma difference (81/80, 64/63 at the largest) is the limit of what can be considered unison.

this is not 'by definition.' this is a modern convention for 12-tone equal temperament. i work in 19-tone, where C# and Db are two distinct notes; in practice, i have two choices of minor 2nd, not one minor 2nd and one augmented unison. the same goes for any historical temperament that distinguishes between flats and sharps.
 
#26
uethanian said:
i have to disagree, regardless of what the 'establishment' says. an augmented unison of that type is in itself a contradiction. if the interval is large enough for the higher note to function as an independent melodic step (like a minor 2nd), it is no longer a unison. a comma difference (81/80, 64/63 at the largest) is the limit of what can be considered unison.

this is not 'by definition.' this is a modern convention for 12-tone equal temperament. i work in 19-tone, where C# and Db are two distinct notes; in practice, i have two choices of minor 2nd, not one minor 2nd and one augmented unison. the same goes for any historical temperament that distinguishes between flats and sharps.
Click to expand...

Well we ain't talking about 19-tone. C-C# is an augmented unison. C-Cx is a double augmented unison. You can argue it but it still stands.

Next are you going to tell me you have a rationalization for a diminished unison?
 
#30
My question is, if it is a whole step between the first and second intervals in BOTH the major AND minor scales. Then how and why do we call the second interval a "Minor" 2nd if it is flattened half a step? The minor scale simply doesn't have a flattened second so why do we label it as if it does?
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"We" don't. In both the Major and Minor scales, the interval from the Tonic (first degree) to the Supertonic (second degree) is a WHOLE step or Major Second.

If you want to know 'why' one scale is called Major and the other Minor (let's assume the Tonic is of the same pitch) is because the three intervals: 3rd, 6th and 7th are Major intervals (in a Major Scale) or each lowered a half-step to Minor intervals (in a Minor Scale). No lowering of the 2nd in either scale.

Using everyone's favorite scale based off C:

C Major - C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C
C Minor - C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, C

The 'rule' is this:

When Major intervals are lowered one half-step they become Minor. Usual intervals: M2nd/m2nd, M3rd/m3rd, M6th/m6th, M7th/m7th, M9th/m9th, M13th/m13th. A few examples would be: C-E (M3rd)/C-Eb (m3rd); C-A (M6th)/C-Ab(m6th)

When Major intervals are raised one half-step they become Augmented. Usual intervals: M2nd/Aug2nd, M9th/Aug 9th. An example would be: C-D (M2nd)/C-D# (Aug2nd).

When Perfect intervals are lowered one half-step they become Diminished. Usual intervals: P5th/Dim5th. An example would be: C-G (P5th)/C-Gb (Dim5th).

When Perfect intervals are raised one half-step the become Augmented. Usual intervals: P5th/Aug5th, P11th/Aug11th. An example would be: C-G (P5th)/C-G# (Aug5th).

When Minor intervals are lowered one half-step they become Diminshed. Ususal interval: m7th/Dim7th. An example would be: C-Bb (m7th)/C-Bbb (Dim7th)

These rules also works in reverse.

Sure you can throw in Augmented Unisons, Diminshed 4ths, etc - but you won't find many examples.
 
#32
uethanian said:
i have to disagree, regardless of what the 'establishment' says. an augmented unison of that type is in itself a contradiction. if the interval is large enough for the higher note to function as an independent melodic step (like a minor 2nd), it is no longer a unison. a comma difference (81/80, 64/63 at the largest) is the limit of what can be considered unison.

this is not 'by definition.' this is a modern convention for 12-tone equal temperament. i work in 19-tone, where C# and Db are two distinct notes; in practice, i have two choices of minor 2nd, not one minor 2nd and one augmented unison. the same goes for any historical temperament that distinguishes between flats and sharps.
Click to expand...

Cool, but we're not talking about 19 tone or any other historical temperament, and neither was the OP, whose original question this discussion was presumably aimed at answering. So it's not really relevant here.

With respect, it doesn't matter whether you personally think this augmented unison business is a contradiction or not. That doesn't change anything. This is how this stuff works and is defined and labeled within the system we're talking about. And yes, it is by definition within this system, as I said earlier, because a "convention" agreed on and held to consistently within a system IS a definition in terms of that system. In the same way that a dictionary definition of a word is merely an agreed-on convention regarding how that word looks and is understood.
 
#33
This nomeclature alway gets me confused. :confused:

Am I thinking of this correctly????.........I always think of the note at the same fret, but one string lower than the tonic as being the 5th ( ie if D on the 5th fret/3rd string is the tonic and the A on the 4th string/5th fret is the 5th) Because this refers to the scale?

But is the interval a 4th, because you have to start counting from the lower note?
 
#34
TobyBass55 said:
This nomeclature alway gets me confused. :confused: Am I thinking of this correctly????.........I always think of the note at the same fret, but one string lower than the tonic as being the 5th ( ie if D on the 5th fret/3rd string is the tonic and the A on the 4th string/5th fret is the 5th) Because this refers to the scale?

But is the interval a 4th, because you have to start counting from the lower note?
Click to expand...

Link Removed
Yes if you place the root of the D major scale on the 3rd string 5th fret it's 5th or A is located one string down on the same fret. The 5th is also located one string up and over two frets. Those two A notes are one octave apart. Use which ever one you like. Using our box pattern the 5th can have two locations. I normally use the up a string and over two frets as it is in the same octave as my root. But, it's not necessary, use which ever one you like best.

Now your next question about the interval. Here is how we count intervals.
Interval number 1, 2, 3,... 4, 5, 6, .7,. 8
Scale notes........D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D
The 4th interval in the D scale is G.
The 2nd interval in the D scale is E.
The 5th interval in the D scale is A.
The 8th interval in the D scale is D one octave up.

An interval is the distance between two tones. The distance between the D tone and the A tone is 5 intervals.

Hope that helped.
 
#35
TobyBass55 said:
This nomeclature alway gets me confused. :confused:

Am I thinking of this correctly????.........I always think of the note at the same fret, but one string lower than the tonic as being the 5th ( ie if D on the 5th fret/3rd string is the tonic and the A on the 4th string/5th fret is the 5th) Because this refers to the scale?

But is the interval a 4th, because you have to start counting from the lower note?
Click to expand...

Intervals are always measured from the lower of the two pitches. D is a perfect fifth ABOVE G, but it also a perfect fourth BELOW G.
 
#36
TobyBass55 said:
This nomeclature alway gets me confused. :confused:

Am I thinking of this correctly????.........I always think of the note at the same fret, but one string lower than the tonic as being the 5th ( ie if D on the 5th fret/3rd string is the tonic and the A on the 4th string/5th fret is the 5th) Because this refers to the scale?
Click to expand...

Basically. If it helps, you might want to refer to it simply as the "5" to distinguish it from a 5th interval.


TobyBass55 said:
But is the interval a 4th, because you have to start counting from the lower note?
Click to expand...

Sort of. It's not so much because you count from the lower note of the interval (though you generally do), it's because an interval is, as been said many times, just a measure of distance. It's like saying 5 miles. 5 miles is 5 miles no matter where you measure it from. An interval is a 4th if there are 3 steps from the first note up to the second, and it doesn't matter what the starting note is. For example, the distance from A up to D is always a perfect 4th interval, regardless of what degree of the scale A represents within the key you're in. In G major, A is the 2 and D is the 5, yet the distance from A up to D is a 4th. In F major, A is the 3 and D is the 6, yet again the distance from A up to D is a 4th.
 
#37
MalcolmAmos said:
Link Removed
Yes if you place the root of the D major scale on the 3rd string 5th fret it's 5th or A is located one string down on the same fret. The 5th is also located one string up and over two frets. Those two A notes are one octave apart. Use which ever one you like.

Now your next question about the interval. Here is how we count intervals.
Interval number 1, 2, 3,... 4, 5, 6, .7,. 8
Scale notes........D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D
The 4th interval in the D scale is G.
The 2nd interval in the D scale is E.
The 5th interval in the D scale is A.
The 8th interval in the D scale is D one octave up.

Hope that helped?
Click to expand...

You might be confusing him again. Those statements about intervals are potentially misleading as written. A single note can't be an interval. I think what you meant to say is that the 4th degree of the D major scale is G, etc.

It's good to get this clear, because the confusion between numbers as applied to scale degrees (and keys and chords) and numbers as applied to intervals is one of the main problems that keeps surfacing in this thread.
 
#39
You MUST start with a reference point.

Using a "D" as the starting point, assign numbers to the seven note scale that most of us Western musicians use - forget about 19 note scales and such. Western music, for the most part uses a 12-tone system.

D=1, E=2, F=3, G=4, A=5, B=6, C=7. Ignore extensions at this point.

Now that you have established the reference, next decide the mode. Most of the time it is of Major quality (Ionian mode). Most of the rest of the time it is Minor (mixing Natural, Melodic and Harmonic minors).

Add the appropriate accidentals to establish the desired Major/Minor quality.

Let's use a Major scale referenced to "D" - label it "1". Assgin a number to each note in the scale - in ascending order: D=1, E=2, F#=3, etc.

If you want to assign Interval names (i.e., interval measurements), you need to learn the corresponding distances AND keep in mind these do not necessarily need to be referenced to the starting point of the scale, but they are for this explanation. Example: D to B-above is a Major 2nd interval, D to C#-below is a Minor second interval.

This can get rather complicated and I'm not going to get into that here. A good example/comparison would be the intervals of a Minor 3rd (i.e., D-F) and an Augmented 2nd (i.e., D-E#) - same number of half-steps, same sound ON THEIR OWN, totally different function,

The confusion mentioned above about the interval of D to A-above, being a Perfect Fifth and the interval of D to A-below being a Perfect 4th is explained by counting the number of half-steps, applying that number to the key. However, the "A" remains the fifth of a D Major/Minor chord, no matter if it above or below the root of a given chord.

All of this is a simple basic explanation.
 

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