Whats "Minor" about a 2nd?

[Spin Doctor]

Because the reason why intervals are referred to as "perfect" has nothing to do with whether they are or are not invariable between major and minor scales. They are called that because they were traditionally considered to be the most consonant-sounding of the intervals, with seconds, thirds, sixths, and sevenths being considered less consonant.

You could also look at it another way, though this is hardly an "official" reason: A second is, in a sense, just the inverse of a seventh (just as a fourth is the inverse of a fifth). If a seventh is major/minor, why shouldn't a second be?

Yeah... What he said, lol...

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Yeah... What he said, lol...

What *you* said, ha!

 

[Sav'nBass]

I think the problem you're experiencing arises because "minor" and "major" are used to describe several different things in music (intervals, chords, keys, scales). You're mixing up a couple of those uses. Major as applied to intervals is not the same as major as applied to keys, chords, or scales.

It took me a long time to grasp that.. I guess if I had taken lessons.. or been born 30 years later ... and would have had the internet..

Slight correction: roots and tonics are not the same thing. Keys don't have roots, they have tonics. Chords have roots. They may be built on any degree of the scale, including the tonic, but whatever note the chord is built on is the root of that chord, regardless of whether it's the tonic of the key.
So in C major, C is the tonic, but it's also the root of a C major chord. D, however, is NOT the tonic in C major (it's the supertonic), but it is still the root of a D minor chord. F is the subdominant in C major, but it is still the root of an F major chord.

I thought A was the subdominant in C Major.. and F the Submediant? Or am I missing something..

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I thought A was the subdominant in C Major.. and F the Submediant? Or am I missing something..

Nope, other way around.

 

[Sav'nBass]

OK so.. help me out here .. please tell me the I II III IV V VI VII names starting from Tonic.... because all this time.. (well actually for the past 7 years or so .. since I started to actually dive in ... and do more than just learn songs..) I thought it was TONIC SUPERTONIC MEDIANT SUBMEDIANT DOMINANT SUBDOMINANT LEADINGTONE. Is that incorrect?

 

[Richard Lindsey]

OK so.. help me out here .. please tell me the I II III IV V VI VII names starting from Tonic.... because all this time.. (well actually for the past 7 years or so .. since I started to actually dive in ... and do more than just learn songs..) I thought it was TONIC SUPERTONIC MEDIANT SUBMEDIANT DOMINANT SUBDOMINANT LEADINGTONE. Is that incorrect?

Yes. It's tonic, supertonic, mediant, subdominant, dominant, submediant, leading tone.

 

[Sav'nBass]

Ahh! OK then.. I need to rethink this.. All this time I had submediant and subdominant mixed up..

 

[Spin Doctor]

Ahh! OK then.. I need to rethink this.. All this time I had submediant and subdominant mixed up..

While those labels are nice to know, I'm not sure they are worth spending a lot of time on. Who ever uses that stuff outside of a classroom?

My feeling is that if you want to work on a diatonic concept, one thing to work on, is learning how diatonic chords function within various major and minor key centers.

For example: an A minor chord can function as the iii of the key of Fmaj, the vi of C maj, or the ii of G maj. Then looking at the relative minors, the A minor chord can be the v of D min, i of A min or iv of E min.

Pop quiz: If you have a chord progression and you see two minor chords a whole step apart e.g. Gmin7/Amin7 what is the major key center? What is the relative minor key center?

Having this knowledge will instantly allow you to see key centers at a glance, and therefore quickly allow you understand the harmony within a chord chart. This is probably more useful for jazzers but it's still useful, I think.

 

[Sav'nBass]

FMaj ... with Dm as the relative minor?

I came to that conclusion based on the major scale going M m m M M m Dim... Is that correct?

This is actually pretty good.. I will be very pleased if I am correct because that will tell me that I am actually learning and understanding... I am doing all this on my own.. so this is the firsat music pop quiz I have ever had... LOL

 

[Spin Doctor]

FMaj ... with D as the relative minor?

I came to that conclusion based on the major scale going M m m M M m Dim... Is that correct?

Yep, that's how it works! So for example, if you see a Half Diminished chord, it can be the vii of a major key or the ii of the (relative) minor key.

You do that analysis for every chord quality and then you have it. It's something to put in the hard drive between your ears. Just another tiny brick in the Great Wall of Music...

 

[Spin Doctor]

Another "trick" to use when looking at functional harmony, is when you have a major diatonic sequence: I ii iii IV V vi iiv, to figure out the relative minor, you just add "2" to the functional harmony chord number.

For example, I in a major key is III in the relative minor. IV in a major key is VI in the relative minor. vi in a major key is i in the relative minor, etc, etc.

 

[Sav'nBass]

Hmmm good stuff... Thanks! I never looked at it this way.. The simplicity of music is astounding when considering it's complexities .. 12 notes with near infinite combinations...

So in other words.. an FM in C would be the VI in the key of Am ... Yes... I see..

 

[Spin Doctor]

Hmmm good stuff... Thanks! I never looked at it this way.. The simplicity of music is astounding when considering it's complexities .. 12 notes with near infinite combinations...

So in other words.. an FM in C would be the VI in the key of Am ... Yes... I see..

Music isn't nearly as hard as people try to make it... There are just some aspects that start out as being fairly unfamiliar. You just focus on one aspect long enough to get it down pretty well, then you move on. It's a brick by brick process...

 

[bfields]

I before E except after C or when it makes a long A sound, or in words like "weird" or "neither"....

A lot of music theory is like spelling--a random collection conventions that are useful to know, but aren't going to unlock the secrets of the universe.

 

[Spin Doctor]

I before E except after C or when it makes a long A sound, or in words like "weird" or "neither"....

A lot of music theory is like spelling--a random collection conventions that are useful to know, but aren't going to unlock the secrets of the universe.

Knowing how to read and write isn't going to necessarily make you Shakespeare, but at least you won't be a dumbass... Better to know something than to pretend ignorance means anything.

 

[HandsFree]

Why does the 2nd (remember I'm talking intervals, not scale degrees) appear in the major/minor camp? What is the rationale? Because it seems that it has more in common with the other 'perfect' intervals, in that it is invariable between the major and minor scales (harmonic and melodic).

It's a question about Western music terminology.

I don't know the answer, which is why I'm posting to refresh the question.

Is it just arbitrary? Why don't we talk about a perfect 2nd instead?

What I've learned (long ago), is that the difference between major and perfect intervals is defined by the distance up/down from the root of the major scale.
Going up a second from the root, that's a whole tone (i.e. c-d). Going down is a half tone (i.e. c-b). That's not the same.
Going up a fourth from the root, that's 2.5 tones (c-f). Going down, that's also 2.5 (c-g).

Intervals that are the same up and down are perfect. Intervals that are not the same are major (up)/minor(down).

 

[Sav'nBass]

Then there is that 6/9 thing when it comes to intervals. A M7th interval will invert to a minor 2nd, a minor 3rd will invert to a M6th... a perfect 5th will invert to a perfect 4th a diminished 5th will invert to an augmented 4th.

 

[Febs]

What I've learned (long ago), is that the difference between major and perfect intervals is defined by the distance up/down from the root of the major scale.
Going up a second from the root, that's a whole tone (i.e. c-d). Going down is a half tone (i.e. c-b). That's not the same.
Going up a fourth from the root, that's 2.5 tones (c-f). Going down, that's also 2.5 (c-g).

Intervals that are the same up and down are perfect. Intervals that are not the same are major (up)/minor(down).

A somewhat related concept:

Inversions of perfect intervals are also perfect intervals. For example, an inversion of a perfect fourth is a perfect fifth, and vice versa.

Inversions of major intervals, on the other hand, are minor intervals, and inversions of minor intervals are major intervals. For instance, in your example, going up from C to D is a major second. Inverting that interval by going up from D to C is a minor seventh.

 

[HandsFree]

A somewhat related concept:

Inversions of perfect intervals are also perfect intervals. For example, an inversion of a perfect fourth is a perfect fifth, and vice versa.

Inversions of major intervals, on the other hand, are minor intervals, and inversions of minor intervals are major intervals. For instance, in your example, going up from C to D is a major second. Inverting that interval by going up from D to C is a minor seventh.

Yes, that's a direct consequence of how 'perfect vs major/minor' is defined (as explained a few posts above).

 

[Persona87]

Ahh! OK then.. I need to rethink this.. All this time I had submediant and subdominant mixed up..

One way to think about this is mediant means third and dominant means fifth. Sub means below (as in submarine), so the submediant is the note a third below (C down to A) and the subdominant is the note a fifth below (C down to F).