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What's the deal with Cab size combinations?

Why would companies advertise mixing 410s with 115s if they produce such horrible results together?
Because companies are in the business of making sales. They promote and sell what the market demands. If you think it makes sense to mix drivers and cabs then that's what they'll provide. If they were only interested in making the best sounding speakers possible the 4x10 wouldn't exist at all. But so long as there's someone who wants a product and is willing to pay for it someone will provide it. Just ask this guy:
Link Removed

And of course your next question will be "what's wrong with a 4x10? Why would companies sell them if they're so horrible?" Same answer.
 
B String said:
Second. I have a Bergantino AE210. I want an AE112 just for a different flavor. For bigger gigs I was thinking of stacking them. Is this really that far off from being a good idea?
I know for a long time Bergantino sold a 12x10x10x horn box.
Would two AE210's really be that much better?

I'm in exactly the opposite situation. I have an AE112 that I wanted to add a second cabinet to. Based on recommendations on this forum, folks said either another AE112 or AE210 would work with either pair having slightly different tone.

I'm going to try the AE210 (should be here Friday). It'll give me a different sound used separately. And if it doesn't work out as a pair, I can always flip it and go with another AE112.
 
I have a Bergantino AE210. I want an AE112 just for a different flavor. For bigger gigs I was thinking of stacking them. Is this really that far off from being a good idea?
I know for a long time Bergantino sold a 12x10x10x horn box.
Would two AE210's really be that much better?

Again, looking to the experts here. Bergantino has offered mixed size speaker boxes. I've never seen any posts about it being a bad idea. Both of these boxes have very similar specs but have a slightly different flavor. So from the knowledgeable (before I go spend the money) ....

Is the mixing of these two boxes a relatively bad idea??
 
If I had to guess though, I'd say you're probably rocking 2 410's, rather than 2 15s, right?

Sorry if that was a bit of a thread hijack. As you were.

Right now, a 112 (see sig). The most I've ever had to use is a pair of 210s with a Markbass F1 head with my EUB.

2 x 410s will, in most cases, be louder than 2 x 115s (approximately double the cone area, but not accounting for other factors involved in displacement), but will have less favourable dispersion of mids/highs.

Horn-loading lets me get plenty loud for my purposes with 1 speaker.
 
So Im thinking the definitive way to go ...

Higher jimmy to EQ you at your next gig.

I think the main thing people are missing here is ... how your rig sounds 3 feet infront of it vs 20 feet infront of it. If thats what were talking about (out of fase response relateing to how an audience member might here it)

Although the bass response is usually best from one location relateing to how your band members here it in practice. On stage there are many factors wich will effect how you and the audience hear your bass notes plucked on the down beat with a drummer.

Most sound guys in my experience want less on stage bass than what alot of players want to hear. What alot of bass players imo , have problems with ... is finding a mix between the stack(amp) presentation , and how it sounds out in the audience.

If you must hear yourself strongly , consider useing a floor wedge monitor cab for atleast one of your cabs.
Thats not to say the backline of cab stacks doesnt work. Just consider when the front PA and your big arse punchy system are not at symbiotic wave lengths .... YOU Can Have Freakin problems. Those fricken gutairs are to easy , so usually they have no clue. Forget what they say. Thats why most sound guys are bass players too ...lol
 
And of course your next question will be "what's wrong with a 4x10? Why would companies sell them if they're so horrible?" Same answer.

In defence of the 4x10, if you are going to stack drivers horizontally (and fudge up the dispersion pattern), you might as well go all the way and cram as many drivers in that box as you can (versus 2x10 and 2x12 cabs with diagonal driver placement...). Not bad cabs if you like a ton of energy at 80-200Hz, after that you might as well use a horn. Sucks to start beaming before 700Hz, but such is life :).
 
agreeing does not constitute intelegence. LOL

.......... neither does lols aparently

What I think can be agreed upon is that most talent agencies are lack of inteligence.

But who ever the hell signed up lady gaga was a ...
 
Perfect example. While just about any pair of decent cabs will sound OK when stacked, if you want really exceptional performance, you have to sweat the details.

In the case of Greenboy's cabs, the boxes are carefully designed to be complimentary, even to the point that the second cab is given a reversed baffle when used for stacking- so that the mid and HF drivers line up for optimal dispersion. Testing has proved that the placement for the smoothest and best response comes down to fractions, not inches.

This is the way really great, not just good, speaker systems are designed, whether we're talking about a bass rig, a concert sound system, or home audio. For anyone who's had the privilege of auditioning a really first-rate setup, it's well worth the extra effort.

Coming from a product manager at a very prestigious and well-known speaker manufacturer, this so far has been the only complete and true thought mentioned here yet without getting bogged down and lost in the details and what-ifs.

The statement that a GOOD cab should be, self-contained, and well engineered to ITSELF, is in fact the only consistent guarantee in the whole mess. Just like different size/type drivers are used, configured, and crossed over (internally) to create a flat, balanced, and well covering speaker, the same consideration needs to be given to the stack.

As soon as you put one speaker on top of another, you start dicking with the output of the drivers with regard to the balance of one cabinet to the other. Not because they physically affect each other, (at least they shouldn't) but the output of one can, and will play a factor in the other.

I've attached an example of the mapping of a Line Array system I was working out yesterday. Take a look at the nice big old green area, and then look closely at the line array modules top to bottom. Two speakers, of any kind, should lend themselves to the other speaker in the general area otherwise, they WILL conflict! That’s to say that the output SHOULD be balanced and additive to the other cabinets in the array. If you were to say, through in an unbalanced, or unique, cab in there, those small red interference lines will and do, imbalance the field output.

288771y.png


The reason cabinets with different size drivers in them receive cross-overs is to control the output of each driver to handle the correct frequency range that they are designed to take care of (HF regions, MF regions, or our favorite, LF Regions).

In summary here, and staying really simple, if you have a 410 cab on top of a 115 cab (or any other mixed sized driver combination), you are INDUCING conflicts between the cabinets! This is you doing it, not the cabinets doing it by themselves. Think of it as if you just put a baffle between a 15" driver and 4 10" drivers in the same box and expected the output field to be even and equal. They will NOT be. If you physically separate those cabs, you will start to see less interference in the frequency response of the cabinets’ cause they produce less phase interference against each other.

Long story short, if your two different size cabs produce EXACTLY the same SPL, at exactly the same Frequency Response, at the same power consumption you should be JUST fine as far as the human ear is concerned. However, if your FR is in any way different (usually the case with different size drivers, check your cabinet spec sheets), you can and will start creating weird interactions at any random location inside the directional field of the driver combination, ie. your listening area in front of the speakers. This is what creates the weird phasing and changes in tone. You'll notice that the issues change as you move from left to right and near field to far field. I would HIGHLY suggest, unless you're an audio engineer who is going to put in a dsp unit to correctly crossover your cabs together and apply the corrections via IIR or FIR filters to flatten both cabs together (not your "EQ" on your head which will affect each cab collectively), you should take the guesswork out of the whole thing and go with the same driver size in all the Cabs. Even though this still isn’t perfect, it’s a lot less risky than assuming or guessing. The next best thing is to reach out to the manufacturer and see if they can provide you with the field relationship information on mixed sized driver cabinets. Any good manufacturer selling a product FAMILY, should have done that information and testing themselves already to ensure their products can be used together seamlessly. However, if someone IS interested in mixing different size cabs (by the same manufacturer and model family...) let me know and I would be GLAD to help guide you to the right DSP you'll need and provide the right corrections to be "perfectly" matched. I’m staying away from mixing manufacturer’s and driver types, and all that craziness, at least without getting paid! Lol.

Just my two cents! Btw, I'm going to be "mixing" the Hartke HyDrive 115 and 410 together here next month in the chamber and getting some dsp settings to maximize the rig for my own use. I'll let you guys know how that turns out if anyone is interested! I'll show you the corrections I use to get a good crossover. I'm suspecting the 410's should only need a small low-pass and the 115 a decent hi-pass to eliminate the mixing. Remember guys, save your EQ for the Room! Not your speakers!
 

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