What's the deal with Cab size combinations?

[lokikallas]

Check out the Victor Wooten article in BPM. He uses Hartke 410 and 115 together. Someone needs to tell him he's got it all wrong.

Talent does not equal intelligence.

 

[Rob22315]

Talent does not equal intelligence.

That's a definitive argument if I ever heard one.

 

[Windreaper]

Talent does not equal intelligence.

One's bass rig is a poor measure of one's intelligence, if you ask me. Being a virtuoso bassist does not automatically make one an expert in acoustics, however. If he likes his setup then more power to him (it is not like he has no options).

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Talent does not equal intelligence.

That's a bit of a cheap shot, as intelligence has no bearing on knowledge. OTOH if Vic was as knowledgeable about how speaker design as he is about how to play the bass he'd be playing through cabs that have his name on them, not someone else's.

 

[BassmanPaul]

Talent does not equal intelligence.

I consider this uncalled for. Not everyone is an engineer. The 4x10 + 1x15 pairing is seen everywhere even though it's a very poor match. Go through the latest copy of Bass Player magazine and I bet that every other advert shows the pairing. Saying that someone lacks intelligence because he has been advised to use such a pairing is insulting in the least!

 

[GrowlerBox]

Talent does not equal intelligence.

Neither does the making of snide and unsubstantiated remarks.

 

[lokikallas]

Ok, my apologies, substitute intelligence with " knowledgeable decision making".

 

[s_mcsleazy]

Talent does not equal intelligence.

and intelligence doesnt equal talent

 

[GrowlerBox]

Ok, my apologies, substitute intelligence with " knowledgeable decision making".

Much better, although still perhaps a little broad.

 

[Mktavish]

Hmmm, bass-frequencies are not about the size/radius of the drivers. It's about the frequency the driver goes for-and backwards.

Lets say, "C' " has 264 hz, means movements (vibrations? Don't know the real expression, I am not native english or american...) per second. Tha "A' " has a frequence of 440 hz, means 440 moves / sec. The deeper the tone, the shorter the frequenz, the less movements per second.

The Problem with big drivers - they dont swing proper. This is the case why the cone is in its shape - and Hartke works with aluminium cones. A cone is much mor stout than a plain paper circle, can you imagine?

Imagine a driver in plain round. It would swing quite uncontrolable. The cone shape makes it more stable. But in a moment the size is too big and the driver movement can't be controled propperly.

This makes the 10'' - Speakers so usefull: With 4 x 10 in a cab you have nearly the same inch² as in a 2x15'' - cab. A 1x15 has 176,63 square inch, two of them 353,25 square inch. A single 10'' - Speaker has 78,5 square inch, 4 of em will equal 314 squre inch.

Thats 355 square inch for 2x15 to 314 square inch for the 4x10. The four speakers will accelerate much faster, better response, damping is easier, so the tone is more acurate, clearer, punchier.

I mix up all cabs I have: A SWR 212 Workingpro with a Peavey TVX 210, a Peavey TVX 210 with a TVX 410, the cab fixed wih my Marshall MB 4410 with a more than 30 years old Ampeg 410 - cab (no tweeter), my SWR Redhead with that Ampeg - cab. And it all works! Fine tone, loud, punchy, as I always wanted.

My main setup is an Ampeg SVP-Pro Preamp with a german poweramp, the Ampeg 410 with the SWR 212. No interferrences, I measured them, all the same phase, it all sounds real good together. With my main setup I am often asked about my rig because of the fabulous tone.

30 years ago I had a 2x15 - cab - and I couldn't get a good tone out of it. Maybe the poor amp I used this time was too weak to move this two huge EVM 15 B. After that I had a Marshall 18'' - cab, a huge thing.I traded it to a tech who has already one and who built a three-way-cab, using it as a small PA this times. The PA-thing worked, but I couldn't cut through in the mix with both of them cabs. It was awfull.

So I was that happy when trading the 118-cab with that Ampeg 410-cab. From this verry moment I had my sound.

Thanks , Ive been looking for exactly this comparison.

As for the 115 paired with a 410 (common you all know you had one once) Im curious as to wich one people found they liked on top? In my not very long experience with this combo , I felt having the 15 in my face was actually better to hear the highs.

 

[Ironderby]

1x18 is ideal. It rolls off every thing you don't want and kicks ass with what you do. 1x15 is OK, but 10" speakers don't reproduce bass frequecies at all......

I don't know, because my 4x10tx peavey has incredible bass that shakes my garage door when my head is at half volume, i guess it just depends on the speakers/cab

 

[BassmanPaul]

As for the 115 paired with a 410 (common you all know you had one once) Im curious as to wich one people found they liked on top? In my not very long experience with this combo , I felt having the 15 in my face was actually better to hear the highs.

No I have never used a 4x10 + 1x15 sorry.

Anyone who just HAS to use this combination SHOULD run the 15 on the top. That way it won't be drowned out by the more efficient, louder and more powerful 4x10. You'll be able to hear it when it runs into trouble.

 

[Etchbass]

Ok, then from a personal standpoint.... as a guy thinking about getting a companion for my Acoustic B115, to get the full 200 watts out of the 200H, just so I can hear myself a bit better on stage, since I am always going DI anyway and just using it as a stage moniter, would I be better getting another 115, or a 410?

Why would companies advertise mixing 410s with 115s if they produce such horrible results together? Why do thousands of bass players play with a 410 right on top of their 115? I thought that as long as the ohms matched up you were good to go, no?

 

[GrowlerBox]

Ok, then from a personal standpoint.... as a guy thinking about getting a companion for my Acoustic B115, to get the full 200 watts out of the 200H, just so I can hear myself a bit better on stage, since I am always going DI anyway and just using it as a stage moniter, would I be better getting another 115, or a 410?

Why would companies advertise mixing 410s with 115s if they produce such horrible results together? Why do thousands of bass players play with a 410 right on top of their 115? I thought that as long as the ohms matched up you were good to go, no?

This gets discussed here almost every day, often more than once a day.

Almost any 2 cabs together will sound better than either one alone, particularly if you're standing right in front of it. So sure, it can be done, as long as the total impedance is at or above your (solid state) head's minimum requirement.

However, for reasons repeated ad nauseum here, these mis-matched combinations will almost never sound as good as, and arguably never better than, a pair of identical cabinets. And, again for reasons given even in this thread if I recall, the 410/115 combination is an especially bad mis-match.

As for what thousands of people do under the influence of advertising .... that's an argument?

 

[makohund]

Not having seen the article/pic/whatever, I can't assume those cabs were running parallel on the same amp or channel. Could be biamping, even.

 

[Etchbass]

This gets discussed here almost every day, often more than once a day.

Almost any 2 cabs together will sound better than either one alone, particularly if you're standing right in front of it. So sure, it can be done, as long as the total impedance is at or above your (solid state) head's minimum requirement.

However, for reasons repeated ad nauseum here, these mis-matched combinations will almost never sound as good as, and arguably never better than, a pair of identical cabinets. And, again for reasons given even in this thread if I recall, the 410/115 combination is an especially bad mis-match.

As for what thousands of people do under the influence of advertising .... that's an argument?

Thanks for the input. I couldn't seem to find anything other than this thread that relates to the issue at hand. Maybe I was putting the wrong words in the search box or something. At any rate, I think I am gonna go with the 410 and put it underneath the 115. From my own experience, they sound damn good together. Advertisers could just as easily advertise the need to buy two of the SAME cab, but they don't. I've heard plenty of INCREDIBLE sounds come out of the 410&115 combination from literally hundreds of bassists. It's just stage monitoring FOR ME anyway, since I like being D/I'd. Plus if it's a smaller venue, I can have my choice of which cab to bring to suit my needs rather than bringing both.

 

[GrowlerBox]

That's cool, man, it's your dime. Just listen hard to your 115 (assuming it's the same impedance as the 410) so you don't fry it before your 410 even breaks a sweat.

 

[B String]

First. I have friends here in Los Angeles that are literally some of the finest players in the country, who don't have a clue or much interest in gear. Just the instrument. Some aren't even sure what size speakers are in their boxes. Just haven't looked. As long as it sounds ok, its fine.

Second. I have a Bergantino AE210. I want an AE112 just for a different flavor. For bigger gigs I was thinking of stacking them. Is this really that far off from being a good idea?
I know for a long time Bergantino sold a 12x10x10x horn box.
Would two AE210's really be that much better?

 

[Windreaper]

Two identical cabs would be better. However, you could send Jim Bergantino an email and ask if they work well together (in terms of phase/frequency response).

 

[Etchbass]

That's cool, man, it's your dime. Just listen hard to your 115 (assuming it's the same impedance as the 410) so you don't fry it before your 410 even breaks a sweat.

I think you just scared me into getting a second 115 instead, so that they are matched.

I'm going to go look up how two 15s sound together. I know they will look cool as hell, so that's not an issue, haha, as long as it is LOUDER so I can hear myself better on stage, then I am good... cause I'm already in love with the little guitar center acoustic 200h's tone as is.

If I had to guess though, I'd say you're probably rocking 2 410's, rather than 2 15s, right?

Sorry if that was a bit of a thread hijack. As you were.