A/B'ing them will not show phasing issues.
Running them together will..................
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What's the deal with Cab size combinations?
- Thread starter Ezmar
- Start date
A/B'ing them will not show phasing issues.
Running them together will..................
Let me fill in the details as I was a bit thin on the explanation. I was using a 210 combo to power the 410 and the 115. I was A/B'ing the interaction of the 115 with the 210 then the 410 with the 210. I did not notice any difference in phasing issues between the 210/115 cab combination compared to the 210/410 combination (e.g. weird variations in volume or frequency around the room). I actually didn't notice any phasing issues with either.
If there were significant phasing issues due to driver size mismatch created by using a 15 cab alongside a 10 cab vs using 2 cabs with all 10 drivers as is currently believed, I thought I might notice it with this setup. I didn't notice any phasing issues with either.
This was not a scientifically rigorous test either.
billfitzmaurice
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You can't notice phase with your ears unless it's really messed up. And two mismatched cabs together will still almost always sound better than either one alone. The only way to know if the two different cabs work better than two of the same matched cabs is to try all three of those setups side by side. BTW, different driver sizes alone aren't the only source of phase issues. The same driver in two different cabs will also have different phase response.
Bill, if you can't hear phase issues resulting from mismatched cabs, then what's the point?
Yes, unless the cabs are identical, there will always be phase differences. Even the same cabs built to the same design will have phase differences due to tolerances in the piece parts and variations in manufacturing. That's still not a reason to consider the lack of matching drivers to be a major problem.
I didn't try the cabs alone I put the 115 next to the 410 and moved the 210 from the top of one to the top of the other (along with moving the speaker cable obviously). I didn't hear any major difference between the 210/115 and the 210/410 combinations. I don't doubt that some combinations sound awful. I wonder if this is more due to differences in harmonics (produced or suppressed) rather than phase.
Folks here constantly repeat the need to make sure the drivers in their cabs are all the same size. Some further note that the speakers/design must be identical to eliminate the 'issue'. I tried it comparing a set of 6 10" drivers (not identical) against 2 10" drivers and a 15" driver - I didn't hear a discernible difference other than a correction made by a slight tweak of the tweeter volume pot. There could be lots of reasons for that none of which involve the original premise being wrong. I think it's less of an issue than would be indicated by the level of ranting here though. My broad experience is that these sorts of fine engineering differences don't make more than a 10% difference in most cases, usually 5% or less (however I measure that with my highly calibrated ears). In my setup, that 10% (or less) effect could easily be swamped by room acoustics, inexpensive components, being in a band setting (I was alone when I tried this), or the use of a modeling amp whose features do far more to alter tone than anything cabs or strings or pickups or tonewoods or phase shifts could. (FWIW, I am still amazed by the variation in sound produced by the BAM emulating various amp/cab combinations.)
billfitzmaurice
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I didn't say that it didn't matter, only that you can't hear it unless as a point of reference you have another setup that does not have any phase issues to compare it with. If you have two speakers with identical phase response next to two speakers that have different phase response you'll hear the difference. Just ask Jimmy, who's ears are good enough that he can hear phase response issues even without a uniform phase control comparison.
Well they're not THAT good 
but I can tell when notes are louder or quieter than another in a mix, which is a phasing symptom. And I can tell when something's off in a mixed cab rig.
but I can tell when notes are louder or quieter than another in a mix, which is a phasing symptom. And I can tell when something's off in a mixed cab rig.
I recently did this with a 210+115 and 210+210 (all from the same manufacturer).
I did not hear any problem with the 210/115 - until I ran the two 210s together. The difference was immediately audible. The mixed cabs were clearly lacking when directly compared to the matched cabs.
I sold the 115.
i play a 4x8 and a 210.....sounds good to me. its all about the tone you want. if the rig produces the sound you want, then play it no matter what the speaker configuration is
There's truth to that statement. I never walked out on a band because the bassist used a mixed cab rig.
The "ranting" usually takes the form -- "matched cabinets work well together, mixing cabinets may or may not, and as it is virtually impossible to predict beforehand, each combination needs to be tried", or some such. Hardly too dogmatic.
The exceptions to this generally have less to do with phasing issues than with the mismatch between power-handling capacities of certain cabinets, i.e. most 410s and most 115s. Even this isn't such a problem at lower volumes, but does put the less "capable" speaker at risk as the levels creep up.
I proved the theory to myself by simply comparing a mixed cab rig to a rig with two identical cabs and the difference was staggering. For years I played through an Eden 115 and 210 stack and knew something was "wrong" but could never put my finger on it. I realized that the character of the 115 cab was lost when blended with the 210 and the tight punchy quality of the 210 was also watered down when mixed with the 115.
When I used a pair of Eden 210 cabs together, the tone was so cohesive, and consistent without all the "holes" in the sound that I always knew were there with my mixed cab rig but didn't know how to articulate what I was hearing.
I later used a pair of matching Mesa 115 cabs and was absolutely blown away with how the pair sounded 10 times bigger then just using one cab but nothing was lost in the frequency spectrum.
Mixing cabs often creates "holes" for lack of a more technical term sound. Using two identical cabs just makes the sound of one of the cabs dramatically bigger.
The point that Bill and Jimmy were making I think is that if you have a mixed rig and nothing else to compare it to, you may be totally satisfied with it and not need to look any further. But that doesn't change the fact that a pair of matching cabs will almost certainly sound fuller, louder and more even when listened to in comparison.
When I used a pair of Eden 210 cabs together, the tone was so cohesive, and consistent without all the "holes" in the sound that I always knew were there with my mixed cab rig but didn't know how to articulate what I was hearing.
I later used a pair of matching Mesa 115 cabs and was absolutely blown away with how the pair sounded 10 times bigger then just using one cab but nothing was lost in the frequency spectrum.
Mixing cabs often creates "holes" for lack of a more technical term sound. Using two identical cabs just makes the sound of one of the cabs dramatically bigger.
The point that Bill and Jimmy were making I think is that if you have a mixed rig and nothing else to compare it to, you may be totally satisfied with it and not need to look any further. But that doesn't change the fact that a pair of matching cabs will almost certainly sound fuller, louder and more even when listened to in comparison.
billfitzmaurice
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You may not be aware that phase issues per se are causing what you hear, but you do hear it and are aware of it. Not everyone's ears are that good. Hell, not everyone can tune their bass without looking at some LEDs to do it.Well they're not THAT good
I have an Epifani PS112 that I run together with a Hartke HyDrive 112 for the simple reason that my second Epifani hasn't arrived yet. The Epi and the Hartke together sound like doo-doo. Bass is too boomy and wooly, mids are just absent, and half the notes on my neck are under volume. I assume there's both cancellation and phase conflict going on. Each sounds pretty good by itself, but I need both to get loud enough for rehearsal.
On the other hand, I have an Eden 410XLT driven by an Eden WT550 eq'd for lows, and sitting on top of that is an SWR 210 combo eq'd for mids and highs. To my ear that sounds great even though the only commonality is the size of the drivers.
So my experience agrees with the conventional wisdom as "ranted" by fellow TBers.
Sometimes mixing works, sometimes it doesn't. Use ears.
On the other hand, I have an Eden 410XLT driven by an Eden WT550 eq'd for lows, and sitting on top of that is an SWR 210 combo eq'd for mids and highs. To my ear that sounds great even though the only commonality is the size of the drivers.
So my experience agrees with the conventional wisdom as "ranted" by fellow TBers.
Sometimes mixing works, sometimes it doesn't. Use ears.
What about cabs that are advertised by the manufacturer to work well together, but aren't exact matches? I see a lot of folks on the Eden forums talking about how nice the 410XST works with the 410XLT.
Its really "to each their own" when it comes to setup and sound. I never have mixed cab sizes, I always tried to keep them the same brand and size. I once used two Fender Bassman 4x10's. Now I appreciate using a single Mesa 6x10 cab, which blows the two Fenders away any day.
People also rave about 4x10+1x15 stacks in similar fashion (the punch of X with the bottom of Y), so...
I have not heard the combination in question but I cannot see any advantage in mixing mismatched cabs, YMMV.
EDIT: Do any of the folks on Eden forums have two of either 410XST or 410XLT and still prefer the XST/XLT mix?
If they have similar phase relationships, they can work well together. Greenboy, who invented the fEarful 3 way cabs, says that his 15/6 works well with his 12/6 because they have similar phase relationships.
