Whats the difference of woods?

[Aspidites]

How far in your life do you take this? Let's say a french fry tasted a little "dull" would you add salt or would you have the fry tested?

Well I don't eat fried foods of any kind so that is a bad analogy.

I will attempt to give an idea of how far I take it.

A few years ago some buddies of mine from UC Berkeley and I went on a herping trip to mount Hamilton in search of Mountain King snakes (Lampropletis zonata ssp). We found 7 individuals that one of the guys proclaimed to be a different subspecies and possibly even a different species based upon meristics. The rest of us insisted that to make that assertion we would need to run the DNA on the geographically isolated Mount Hamilton animals against every other subspecies within the species zonata. Over the next 6 years we collected scute clippings from wild caught members of each of the individual subspecies and ran them to gauge how interrelated they were, from that we determined that in fact the Mount Hamilton zonata while appearing to be a different subspecies were in fact an isolated group of Coastal Mountain Kings (Lampropeltis zonata multifasciata).

 

[Aspidites]

Oops, I forgot to add that apparently you missed my brief posts about the test assemblies I've performed as well as my findings.

I will go back and read them.

 

[Dark Horse]

A few years ago some buddies of mine from UC Berkeley and I went on a herping trip to mount Hamilton in search of Mountain King snakes (Lampropletis zonata ssp). We found 7 individuals that one of the guys proclaimed to be a different subspecies and possibly even a different species based upon meristics. The rest of us insisted that to make that assertion we would need to run the DNA on the geographically isolated Mount Hamilton animals against every other subspecies within the species zonata. Over the next 6 years we collected scute clippings from wild caught members of each of the individual subspecies and ran them to gauge how interrelated they were, from that we determined that in fact the Mount Hamilton zonata while appearing to be a different subspecies were in fact an isolated group of Coastal Mountain Kings (Lampropeltis zonata multifasciata).

This all sounds very familiar to me ...kinda like some of my herping trips. Things like Zonata, Lepidus, etc - yeah, there can be variability between mountain ranges, so DNA is about the best way...scale counts don't always tell enough

Are you a member of the FHF (Field Herp Forum) ?

 

[Aspidites]

This all sounds very familiar to me ...kinda like some of my herping trips. Things like Zonata, Lepidus, etc - yeah, there can be variability between mountain ranges, so DNA is about the best way...scale counts don't always tell enough

It sounds to me like you are in need of a good field herping trip.
Maybe a trip for alterna or lepidus would do the trick. If you are out this way I can arrange a good zonata trip.

Are you a member of the FHF (Field Herp Forum) ?

I used to be but it has been a long time.

 

[Dark Horse]

It sounds to me like you are in need of a good field herping trip.
Maybe a trip for alterna or lepidus would do the trick. If you are out this way I can arrange a good zonata trip.

I just got back from W Texas a couple weeks ago - had a few lifers - found a BIG Texas Coral (I've found AZ and FL Corals), Big Bend (Retic) Gecko, etc - some good stuff. I got a lot of great photos that I'm currently going through and sorting. No Alterna this trip, though I've caught way more than my fair share in the past.

I'll be in Cali and AZ in September (probably the first week...darkest moon phase IIRC) visiting a friend (Dave Long...you might know him) and doing some herping. Still haven't found a Gila, which is one big goal for me - so I'm sure I'll head up to Baghdad. Rosys are always fun too. Don't know if I'll go out for Z's...depends if I can convince my girlfriend...we'll be smack in the middle of some great tarantula country (Baja Blondes !), so she'll be definitely out looking for them. I'll PM you as time gets closer....I think it would be a blast to do some Z hunting with you !

(I'll probably make another Cali trip in late March as well)

I used to be but it has been a long time.

I only head there occasionally, but figured I'd ask


Here's a Sonoran Gopher from a couple weeks ago that tried to convince us that he was an Atrox !

 

[Aspidites]

I just got back from W Texas a couple weeks ago - had a few lifers - found a BIG Texas Coral (I've found AZ and FL Corals), Big Bend (Retic) Gecko, etc - some good stuff. I got a lot of great photos that I'm currently going through and sorting. No Alterna this trip, though I've caught way more than my fair share in the past.

I am jealous, I would love to find a big Coral. I would love to see your photos if it is ok with you.

I'll be in Cali and AZ in September (probably the first week...darkest moon phase IIRC) visiting a friend (Dave Long...you might know him) and doing some herping. Still haven't found a Gila, which is one big goal for me - so I'm sure I'll head up to Baghdad. Rosys are always fun too. Don't know if I'll go out for Z's...depends if I can convince my girlfriend...we'll be smack in the middle of some great tarantula country (Baja Blondes !), so she'll be definitely out looking for them. I'll PM you as time gets closer....I think it would be a blast to do some Z hunting with you !

I have met Dave a few times, good guy.

If you head to Baghdad there are some cool Rosy's in the area.

(I'll probably make another Cali trip in late March as well)

Late March could be good for Zonata if the weather is right.

I only head there occasionally, but figured I'd ask

It is not as popular as it used to be.

Here's a Sonoran Gopher from a couple weeks ago that tried to convince us that he was an Atrox !

I LOVE that threat display! Beautiful Pituophis.

 

[WarriorJoe7]

wood is organic so each piece within a species has some variability (some species have more variability than others.) Plus there are some pieces of wood in each species that are outliers.

Follow the links in the warmoth and carvin guide but REMEMBER that they are generalities. Remmebr that it is INDEED somewhat of a crapshoot because wood is organic. Just like no 2 fingerprints are the same, no 2 trees are going to be the same in regards to grain, density, harmonic content, sound etc.

Ebony is LIKELY to be brighter than maple and maple is LIKELY to be brighter than alder but if you search through a big stack of wood from a variety of trees/places you will most likely find that piece of alder that is brighter than a certain piece of ebony from a big stack of ebony.

It is indeed a crap shoot... and those are only guides (that have some decent probability built into them.)

It is arguable whether or not the wood or the strings or the electronics make the most difference but it is absolutely true and provable that they all make SOME difference. Keep in mind that there is usually a lot less variability in most strings and electronics as compared to wood.

A good approach is to find and play as many basses and find one that speaks to you, then make sure it fits in well sound wise with your particular band (band members and their instruments are also organic, and the interplay of finger to wood is too complex to model.) Then stick with that bass with those strings (for that band or style at least.) If you change bands and need to change sound try the strings fist since they are the cheapest change, then the electronics, and a last resort change basses (maybe even find a different bass of the same model... I say tongue in cheek that an orange bass sounds brighter than a purple one.)

If you are building a new bass use the wood guides as best guess guidelines and hope for the best. Then depending on how much money you have to spend you can experiment with different pickups and strings to tweak the sound until you get it where you like it.

 

[Dark Horse]

I am jealous, I would love to find a big Coral. I would love to see your photos if it is ok with you.

I have met Dave a few times, good guy.

If you head to Baghdad there are some cool Rosy's in the area.

Late March could be good for Zonata if the weather is right.




It is not as popular as it used to be.


I LOVE that threat display! Beautiful Pituophis.

I figured you might know Dave. I've been on countless trips with him...my "brother from another mother".

Baghdad - yeah, I love the Rosys there. I still want to find that Gila though, and I know there are some beauties in that area.


I've had great luck in late March/early April for Z's, as well as flipping Rosy Boas...that's why I figured a trip might be in order. I haven't found any Z's (personally) past August/early September, so I don't put a ton of stock into finding them this next trip. I'm sure that they're around till October, I just haven't found them.

I'll definitely send you some pics. The TX Coral pics aren't that great, but they are decent enough - and they give a good clue as to the size of this fella. He was a truly gorgeous animal. You'd have loved him. PM your email address to me and as soon as I get them looked over, I'll send you a few pics.

 

[mongo2]

I will go back and read them.

Don't bother, you won't like them.

 

[Muaguana]

Composition changes the way waves are transmitted -

Link Removed

Now we're talkin'.

 

[Muaguana]

Some of my findings:

1) The wood effects the tone.

2) Wood is so variable that predicting the precise effect is not possible.

3) Necks have more influence on the tone than the body.

4) Pickups and eq can be adjusted to negate the effect of the wood, and sound like ca-ca (ca-ca is just a subjective term).

5) The density of the wood (judged by relative weights) shouldn't be used to predict performance.

I meant in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, with every detail and step of the procedure you used outlined clearly so other scientists may replicate the experiment.

No, if someone were really interested in finding out they would play as many basses as they could put their hands on and pay attention to what they're experiencing... not rely on some lab result with a ton of variables.

Not that there's anything wrong with soeone else killing time in a pursuit that could better be determined through actual experience. IME getting the real life experience is way more fun than trying to rule out ever variable.

You seem incapable of separating one's perception and opinion from absolute, reality-based fact. I believe wood affects tone. But that's a belief, not an assertion of truth, and I would never try to convince anyone of it being so unless I had scientific evidence to prove it. Personally, I doubt we'll ever get the peer-reviewed-level paper to settle this matter, so I don't care too much for knowing whether it's objective truth.

One of my pet peeves, however, is when someone makes a declaration of absolute fact based on nothing but their subjective opinions and anecdotal evidence, and then says it's the skeptic's responsibility to prove their unproven claims to be wrong. That is a fallacy. That is what I am arguing - that you can't define reality based on your opinions alone. That's why the scientific method was invented, so we could discover what really does occur in our world by eliminating subjective bias in the testing method.

So, if I were interested in determining the absolute reality of the situation, then yes, I would do a lab test. As it stands, I have my opinion, and that's good enough for me. If I were to try and pass off said opinion as fact, it would be my responsibility to provide proof, not the responsibility of the skeptic to disprove it.

 

[Dark Horse]

I am jealous, I would love to find a big Coral. I would love to see your photos if it is ok with you.

Here's one of the Coral photos. Not the best pic, as it's a new camera and I'm still learning the "ins and outs" of it - but you'll get the idea -

I've got a pic of him crawling across the yellow lines in the center of the road, and those give a reasonable idea of his size.

 

[DerHoggz]

Just a few posts ago you two were enemies, Now you guys wanna herp with each other and are comparing snakes.

 

[Dark Horse]

Just a few posts ago you two were enemies, Now you guys wanna herp with each other and are comparing snakes.

Check again - we were never "enemies"...just two people discussing opposing viewpoints, and I don't believe that you'll find any posts where either of us said anything "personal" about each other. (BTW - we occasionally have gotten into reptile discussions in the past...we both go way back in breeding, field herping, etc.)

 

[Brad Johnson]

Of course not. After all, why should I expect blatant tonal differences to be captured in a recording?

I could explain it but where's the fun in that?

 

[Brad Johnson]

Yes, all of the time but I know better than to accept that as evidence that it has any bearing on the tone the bass produces when plugged in. Basically I want peer reviewed scientific research on ANY topic, instruments or otherwise.

Then I almost feel for you... but I know the situation is self-imposed so...

 

[Brad Johnson]

But it can't be recorded and distributed, it appears.

Sure it can... but how do you discern all of the variables in that case?

Like I said, I'm not going to rehash all of the problems with trying to judge this with clips.

 

[Brad Johnson]

The ONLY person here that in any way has done research is Dark Horse.

That is simply bull... that's the only research you're apparently aware of.

Fact?

 

[Eminor3rd]

Still doesn't say anything. You can't use your conclusion as support for your conclusion.

I have no means to prove anything to you, so I'm not even trying. I, having actually compared similar basses made of different woods, know that they sound quite different. And since I know that, I'm assuming you don't know what you're talking about, and haven't compared similar basses made of different woods, because if you had, you'd know that they sound different, too.

Thus, assuming that you haven't ever compared similar basses made of different woods, I think you shouldn't be telling people that they sound the same, when in fact, you haven't ever heard them.

And sounds quite elitist, too.

Do you mean 'condescending'? If so, it isn't meant to be condescending. It IS, however, annoyed.

I can only wonder what this place would be if experts successfully shouted down everyone they didn't agree with by claiming to be an expert.

I make absolutely no claim to be an expert, but I do consider the luthiers that are speaking in this thread to be experts, and to know whether or not different woods affect the tone of their instruments.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I meant in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, with every detail and step of the procedure you used outlined clearly so other scientists may replicate the experiment.

. Seriously...

You seem incapable of separating one's perception and opinion from absolute, reality-based fact. I believe wood affects tone. But that's a belief, not an assertion of truth, and I would never try to convince anyone of it being so unless I had scientific evidence to prove it. Personally, I doubt we'll ever get the peer-reviewed-level paper to settle this matter, so I don't care too much for knowing whether it's objective truth.

I know wood affects tone... and fortunately I don't need a third party to validate my experience.


How many builds would I need to be involved in before you'd put that tired line to bed... or do you consider being involved in the construction of basses immaterial? Changing only the wood and getting obviously different results only matters if I wore a white coat.


Like I said, I don't need to convince you of any of this, keep waiting for "official" proof of what most people with a decent set of ears can easily hear... IRL.

One of my pet peeves, however, is when someone makes a declaration of absolute fact based on nothing but their subjective opinions and anecdotal evidence, and then says it's the skeptic's responsibility to prove their unproven claims to be wrong. That is a fallacy. That is what I am arguing - that you can't define reality based on your opinions alone. That's why the scientific method was invented, so we could discover what really does occur in our world by eliminating subjective bias in the testing method.

And you threw all of that in this response to me why?

So, if I were interested in determining the absolute reality of the situation, then yes, I would do a lab test. As it stands, I have my opinion, and that's good enough for me. If I were to try and pass off said opinion as fact, it would be my responsibility to provide proof, not the responsibility of the skeptic to disprove it.

Then do your lab tests, I'll be content doing my gigs.