what's the most difficult key

[anonymous122511]

Not really sure why you felt that needed further qualification.

Existence is not a relative parameter, something either does or does not exist. There's not much point in saying something doesn't exist except in those cases where it does.

No one is arguing that the key is common or useful in most situations. It's the sort of thing you get to while working on a graduate degree in music or maybe in the pit band in a Sondheim musical and then never need again.

Glad you finally said this last as your posts up to this point may have led someone new to all this to believe otherwise....which is why I "felt the need for further qualification" as you put it. Sure it "exists" but not in any useful way in 99% of the situations most people will ever encounter.

As far as existence being a finite parameter it's not but rather is relative to your conscious experience. Music theory is a construct of the human mind and will cease to exist when you cease thinking about it. It will change as you change how you think about it. But that's probably for another thread.

 

[Klonk]

Eb on a 4 string I never enjoy playing. Same for me with Bb on a 5'er, you don't have too many choices for root note then.

 

[Mike Dimin]

Eb on a 4 string I never enjoy playing. Same for me with Bb on a 5'er, you don't have too many choices for root note then.

Only if one thinks root up. I can easily access, on a 4 string bass, 18 keys in the first 5 frets of the bass (all 12 plus 5 more in a different position)

 

[teleharmonium]

No. Being comfortable in all keys comes with the realization that one key is exactly like another. The BG is a symmetrical instrument. Anything played in one key can just as easily be played in any other. It is a a bit of a paradigm shift from the way we were taught, but once you "see it" it becomes pretty easy.

I agree, and I've said as much myself, you're supporting rather than refuting the point I am making about the value of working in all keys.

 

[teleharmonium]

As far as existence being a finite parameter it's not but rather is relative to your conscious experience. Music theory is a construct of the human mind and will cease to exist when you cease thinking about it. It will change as you change how you think about it. But that's probably for another thread.

It's a mental construct, but it's not my personal mental construct. If I get hit by a bus tomorrow, I assure you music theory (in it's vast, changeable way) will still exist, particularly core concepts like those we are talking about. If it's existence depended on me, it would be very different.

 

[Mike Dimin]

I agree, and I've said as much myself, you're supporting rather than refuting the point I am making about the value of working in all keys.

Sorry, I reread your post and stand corrected. It is still, however, my educated and experienced based opinion, that playing in any key is no ore difficult than playing in any other - once one truly understand the fretboard and divorce themselves from the root up mentality most of us started out with

 

[M.Wrenn]

Only if one thinks root up. I can easily access, on a 4 string bass, 18 keys in the first 5 frets of the bass (all 12 plus 5 more in a different position)

Most of us can as well, however, I believe the point he was making is that you don't have a low root to land on if you need it when playing Eb on a four string or Bb on a five string.

Now, if you can also do that, in standard tuning without the help of detuners, then maybe I should buy your book.

 

[Mike Dimin]

Most of us can as well

No actually most of you cannot. I have done clinics, workshops and masterclasses from San Fransisco to Istanbul - and I can tell you with 100% assurance that most cannot play in all keys in the "money position" on the bass. And less can do it with any sort of fluency. Less can play fluently in any key on all positions on the neck.

Let's pull an example, I notice on your website that you play Footprints. How would you approach a solo on that tune? For this example, let's talk about key(s) and/or scales(s)

 

[M.Wrenn]

No actually most of you cannot. I have done clinics, workshops and masterclasses from San Fransisco to Istanbul - and I can tell you with 100% assurance that most cannot play in all keys in the "money position" on the bass. And less can do it with any sort of fluency. Less can play fluently in any key on all positions on the neck.

Let's pull an example, I notice on your website that you play Footprints. How would you approach a solo on that tune? For this example, let's talk about key(s) and/or scales(s)

Well, everyone advances at their own rate, but your point is fair.

I'm game to go with this example, but what does it have to do with playing in all keys in the "Money position?"

 

[Lavrans]

"I hate playing in D major my five string. It either sounds too deep and if I switch up an octave, it sounds too high. For some reason I'm not comfortable playing halfway up and down. Eb, no problem. E, no problem. Even Db isn't too bad. For some reason, playing in D just never sounds right to me."

D maj: either 1st position or the octave? There's a nifty D chord right in the middle- 3rd string 5th fret 1st and 2nd string 7th fret. Pretty easy to work out your basic pentatonic scale from that position. But you guys knew that, right?

(The Old New Guy)

 

[Mike Dimin]

Well, everyone advances at their own rate, but your point is fair.

I'm game to go with this example, but what does it have to do with playing in all keys in the "Money position?"

Although most people approach Footprints in a single key ( or worse, a C minor pentatonic), it is actually in multiple keys, if you cannot create either a bass line or solo without having to actually change positions, you are missing so much of the music. This song in particular is especially insightful once you really look at it

 

[teleharmonium]

Although most people approach Footprints in a single key ( or worse, a C minor pentatonic), it is actually in multiple keys, if you cannot create either a bass line or solo without having to actually change positions, you are missing so much of the music. This song in particular is especially insightful once you really look at it

I see the harmonic approach for the song, and the left hand position, as independent topics. Changing positions, if that's where the muse takes you during a solo, is not going to limit your harmonic approach or cause you to miss the music.

 

[M.Wrenn]

Although most people approach Footprints in a single key ( or worse, a C minor pentatonic), it is actually in multiple keys, if you cannot create either a bass line or solo without having to actually change positions, you are missing so much of the music. This song in particular is especially insightful once you really look at it

Gotta say I wasn't aware that footprints was in multiple keys, not consciously at least.

Care to elaborate?

Still not quite seeing how this really relates to your original point...

 

[M.Wrenn]

I see the harmonic approach for the song, and the left hand position, as independent topics. Changing positions, if that's where the muse takes you during a solo, is not going to limit your harmonic approach or cause you to miss the music.

very good point. Also, if you're playing musically and with a good sense of melodic development, your solo will sound good regardless of it's in one key or multiple

 

[jmattbassplaya]

Keys are difficult on bass?

Maybe coming from a woodwind background has made me bitter, but playing in any key on most stringed instruments is an absolute breeze.

 

[Mike Dimin]

Gotta say I wasn't aware that footprints was in multiple keys, not consciously at least.

Care to elaborate?

Still not quite seeing how this really relates to your original point...

very good point. Also, if you're playing musically and with a good sense of melodic development, your solo will sound good regardless of it's in one key or multiple

How do you have a good sense of melodic development without knowing the key? How can you have a melodic development without first knowing the melody? If you knew the melody of the tune, i.e. footprints, you would clearly see that the C-7 and the F-7 come from different keys.

The melody over the C-7 contains an A natural. This clearly points to C Dorian (key of Bb)

The melody over the F-7 has a D natural. This clearly points to F Dorian (key of Eb)

A relative novice soloist might choose C minor Pent or C blues.

A more experienced soloist might find that these chords are in different keys and move from C Dorian up/down to F Dorian.

An enlightened soloist would be able to superimpose these two keys over the same positions on the fretboard and notice that the only difference between the keys is an A natural moving to an Ab. Now using that "good sense of melodic development", i.e. the use of motives pulled from the original melody and developed, sequences, common tones vs. different tones, pitch axis, etc would find true musicality in their performance

Mike

 

[Mike Dimin]

Keys are difficult on bass?

Maybe coming from a woodwind background has made me bitter, but playing in any key on most stringed instruments is an absolute breeze.

+1

 

[Mike Dimin]

I see the harmonic approach for the song, and the left hand position, as independent topics. Changing positions, if that's where the muse takes you during a solo, is not going to limit your harmonic approach or cause you to miss the music.

I no longer see anything in music as "independent topics"

 

[teleharmonium]

I no longer see anything in music as "independent topics"

I have no quarrel with that broad philosophy, but nonetheless, a player can change left hand positions and deal with the chords in this tune without dumbing it down to a single scale as if it were a platform for minor blues wanking. There is no dichotomy between those two things.

If anything, changing the position suggests that the player is trying to deal with the chords. Otherwise they can just stay where they are, if they're doing the old pentatonic cop out maneuver.

 

[M.Wrenn]

How do you have a good sense of melodic development without knowing the key? How can you have a melodic development without first knowing the melody? If you knew the melody of the tune, i.e. footprints, you would clearly see that the C-7 and the F-7 come from different keys.

The melody over the C-7 contains an A natural. This clearly points to C Dorian (key of Bb)

The melody over the F-7 has a D natural. This clearly points to F Dorian (key of Eb)

A relative novice soloist might choose C minor Pent or C blues.

A more experienced soloist might find that these chords are in different keys and move from C Dorian up/down to F Dorian.

An enlightened soloist would be able to superimpose these two keys over the same positions on the fretboard and notice that the only difference between the keys is an A natural moving to an Ab. Now using that "good sense of melodic development", i.e. the use of motives pulled from the original melody and developed, sequences, common tones vs. different tones, pitch axis, etc would find true musicality in their performance

Mike

First of all I said "one key or multiple," I made no mention of ignoring the key, and there are plenty of extremely musical players who can solo purely by ear, but that is beside the point.

And I do know the melody to footprints, but I hadn't analyzed it to that extent, mainly because I learned it by ear in the middle of playing the song at a gig so I could incorporate it into my solo.

All that being said, this all still has nothing to do with the fact that it's relatively annoying to play in Eb on a four string or Bb on a five string because you can't reach the low roots in standard tuning. At this point we're merely discussing the harmonic and melodic content of Footprints and you're attempting to send your bass gospel down from on high. While you may be extremely knowledgeable about music, you're just coming across as someone who has nothing better to do than patronize members of a bass forum who happen to be less musically informed than yourself.