Double Bass Whats the technical term for the petrushka chord?

[Sigge]

The petrushka chord is a chord made by Igor Stravinskij, first used in his ballet "Petrushka" but is most famously used in a later ballet of his, "The Rite of Spring".

It consists of two major triads set a tritone apart. For example a C major triad and a F# major triad player at the same time. In this case the notes would be:

C - E - G
F# - A# - C#

I've tried making this into a single chord and the easiest I've managed to find is C7#11(addb9) and line it up like this:

C - E - G - Bb - Db - F#

But is there an easier way to name this chord in a different order, perhaps with a different root?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I can't quite imagine a situation where it would really need to be represented as a chord symbol, since it would likely want to be voiced in a certain way and would probably therefore be best notated on the staff. However, since we're in the theory forum, technically I think you could call the voicing that you list C7b9(b5). In general, if it isn't being used in a traditional jazz context but you don't want a specific voicing, I would think that "GbMa/CMa" would be a reasonable way to describe that sound; it would also allow for a large number of possible voicings that leave the basic structure intact.

 

[Sigge]

I think you could call the voicing that you list C7b9(b5)

I don't think this works cause you have excluded the G

I would think that "GbMa/CMa" would be a reasonable way to describe that sound; it would also allow for a large number of possible voicings that leave the basic structure intact.

I can agree with this, but I don't think it would be considered the ideal chord name if I was to hand in a composition to one of my teachers with this chord

 

[Jazz Ad]

It doesn't make much sense harmonically. I see it as a cluster rather than a chord.

 

[Steve Freides]

@Sigge, why call it something it's not?

-S-

 

[Sigge]

@Sigge, why call it something it's not?

What do you mean? Any chord should be able to be named in some way or another

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I don't think this works cause you have excluded the G

True enough. Keeping in mind that I wouldn't name this sound as a jazz chord and that I think GbMa/CMa is probably the best you can do to name what seems so obviously a polychord, I guess you could go with C7b9(#11) instead.

The problem with jazz chords is that depending on who is playing them, they are given to extreme interpretation on the part of each different player. If you really want a Gb triad over a C triad, I would write that. I can't imagine a teacher having a problem with actually saying what you mean. If it is in a jazz context where changes need to be given for improvisation, then perhaps showing both and making the "blowing change" parenthetical would be the way to go.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I think C7b9#11 would be the correct chord symbol. Alternatively

Gb
---
C

I wouldn't use the F# here, since it two notes of it (Bb and Db) are part of the scale and only one is not (Gb, because it's a augmented fourth from C in the scale, not a flatted fifth, like Sigge mentioned before). But you might think I'm splicing hairs here...

What Chris suggested with GbMa/CMa is not totally correct, since the diagonal slash is used for a single bass note only. Poly chords are notated with a horizontal line, the higher chord on top, the lower chord with the root note on bottom. But this is just a notation convention to be able to quicker distinguish the chord with differing bass note from a poly chord.
And Chris Ma makes it obvious that it is a chord and not a note, but it depends on the chord symbol notation convention if that gets obvious, because in a different convention C means C major chord.

I found it as "Tri-tone pair" (Jim Snidero) which I renamed more correctly as "Tri-tone major chord pair". It's a sub scale of dominant-diminished (halftone-wholetone).

 

[Steve Freides]

What do you mean? Any chord should be able to be named in some way or another

Why? It's not an appropriate thing for some kinds of music, e.g. Renaissance church music - you can assign chords if you like, but the composers and listeners didn't think that way and there's nothing to be gained by trying to fit the music into a box it doesn't belong in. Likewise, there's plenty of post-1900-written classical music where assigning a chord name to a particular point in the music is suggesting a way of thinking that just doesn't fit - yours is one such example.

-S-

 

[Steve Freides]

See also this thread here:

Hear & Name That Chord!

which also discusses if/how to name chords and mentions this tune.

-S-

 

[Don Kasper]

BTW - this harmonic structure (F#triad over a C triad), functions beautifully as the first chord change in "Caravan" (C7b9#11)
In the Ballet, it is voiced:
C, C#, E, F#, G, A#.
and is often played as a tremolo between both triads, which combines to become a single sonority, not 2 separate chords, IMO.
Thanks, Igor... and Thanks, Juan Tizol!

 

[Don Kasper]

In case you've not heard this:

 

[Don Kasper]

In case you've not heard this:

@6:22 - is a good example of the "Petrouchka chord" as a tremolo between the 2 triads. (I think.)
@11:36 thru 12:35/13:00 thru 13:39 - maybe the first example of the (now mandatory) jam on "Esus"!
Finally, I'm no pianist, but Mssrs. Maurizio & Pollini are sure playing the hell out of this piece!
Igor was a BMF!

 

[sevan]

this chord is not a member of tonic dominant based relationships; so any chord symbol willl make it something else
so changing it's root or inversions will not produce anything
if you want to produce similar musical effect you should use tonal layers siimultaneously within your work.


note: reading hindemith's "The Craft of musical composition" will give you additional insight about chords - if tonality is your major concern

 

[Bob_Ross]

Any chord should be able to be named in some way or another

Yes, but the "name" that's most appropriate may have nothing to do with the commonly-used chord symbols one finds in jazz, pop, show music, or other other idioms where chords can be named as a form of shorthand to convey both un-ordered/non-register-specific pitch class content and harmonic function [sic].

In fact, "The Petrushka Chord" is probably a more concise and informative name than any other conventional chord symbol you could come up with (e.g., "C7b9#11") because "The Petrushka Chord" tells you not only how it's voiced, but also how it functions historically & culturally, and what you should expect it to sound like in extremely specific terms. Conversely, "C7b9#11" is incredibly misleading in terms of what this musical simultaneity should sound like.

Lots of 20th Century music doesn't lend itself to chord names per se because the harmonic vocabulary is derived from a whole different set of objectives. For that reason it's often more useful to describe simultaneities as diads/trichords/tetrachords/hexachords/etc. rather than "chords" and to use George Pearle's Integer Model Of Pitch for describing specific collections. (So in that case, the "Petrushka Chord" is a particular ordering of an 0-1-4-6-7-10 hexachord. And there are ways to additionally describe the ordering and the registral distribution which unfortunately I don't recall off the top of my head!)

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I think the closest might be two stacked chords like
F#
---
C
These are notes that come from the dominant diminished scale (aka halftone-wholetone scale) exclusively if you don't accept an even more exotic scale.

 

[davidhilton]

The petrushka chord is a chord made by Igor Stravinskij, first used in his ballet "Petrushka" but is most famously used in a later ballet of his, "The Rite of Spring".

It consists of two major triads set a tritone apart. For example a C major triad and a F# major triad player at the same time. In this case the notes would be:

C - E - G
F# - A# - C#

I've tried making this into a single chord and the easiest I've managed to find is C7#11(addb9) and line it up like this:

C - E - G - Bb - Db - F#

But is there an easier way to name this chord in a different order, perhaps with a different root?

It's really just a hexatonic, C maj triad over a Gb maj triad. C7 b9,#11? Gb7 b9, #11? It's just a hexatonic.. nothing to see hear folks... keep moving along.. hahaha nice sounding chord though.

 

[Don Kasper]

It's really just a hexatonic, C maj triad over a Gb maj triad. C7 b9,#11? Gb7 b9, #11? It's just a hexatonic.. nothing to see hear folks... keep moving along.. hahaha nice sounding chord though.

I'm not familiar with the term "...a hexatonic" - can you elaborate and/or define?
Esp. regarding vertical/harmonic (not horizontal/melodic) content or structures.
Thanks, davidh...

 

[Tom Lane]

I'm not familiar with the term "...a hexatonic" - can you elaborate and/or define?
Esp. regarding vertical/harmonic (not horizontal/melodic) content or structures.
Thanks, davidh...

Check out the Wikipedia article on George Russell. In short, two triads. IMO, it's another valid way of looking at harmony and may well appeal to some people, but probably a minority. There are times, IMO, when two triads are clearer than any other chord symbol, especially for a piano player.

 

[Don Kasper]

may well appeal to some people, but probably a minority.

Yeah - "Include me out..."
Not a particularly useful term, IMO.

NYC Saxophonist Walt Weiskopf has written an interesting book entitled "Intervalic Improvisation", which explores "triad pairs", a more descriptively useful term, IMFO.
Now, I have to begin drinking my nightly Hex-pack of beer.
Thanks.