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whats wrong with tabs?

One of the best things i ver did was to learn to read music and charts. there great in a group situation but i will still use TAB in some cases but only as a reference what i play will be alot diferent to the tab cos one you get a starting point then you can usually use your ear for the rest of a tune and/or improvise and modifiy it till your happy.
So i think that we should stop labing TABS as useless and use them if you want and is not dont use them. And im sure as hell gonna download a tab if it means not having to by the music if its too hard to work bye ear. I have a very good ear and i still have trouble figuring stuff out quick in some cases. Sometimes you dont have time to listen listen and listen to song if you need to learn it at short notice.

thankyou and thats my 2 cents
:cool: :p
 
Originally posted by fleanut
One of the best things i ver did was to learn to read music and charts. there great in a group situation but i will still use TAB in some cases but only as a reference what i play will be alot diferent to the tab cos one you get a starting point then you can usually use your ear for the rest of a tune and/or improvise and modifiy it till your happy.
So i think that we should stop labing TABS as useless and use them if you want and is not dont use them. And im sure as hell gonna download a tab if it means not having to by the music if its too hard to work bye ear. I have a very good ear and i still have trouble figuring stuff out quick in some cases. Sometimes you dont have time to listen listen and listen to song if you need to learn it at short notice.

thankyou and thats my 2 cents
:cool: :p


Good point - I agree:)
 
Originally posted by T Jay
Assuming you want to play out with many other musicians, TAB is useless in terms of communicating the language of music.

If you're going to play a tune you know in Ab and the sax player knows in F, are you going to hand him your Ab tab sheet?

If it is decided to play the tune in F and you only know the tune from your Ab tab sheet, what will you do,...... go wait in the car till it's over?

NO!!! Forget tab and learn the tune from your ear or traditional written form.

Tab is for players who love their diaper and are afraid to go poop like a big people!

Actually - if you want to change the key of the song, standard notation won't be any better than TAB. When I was a kid, and read music, I just learned that that dot on that line was that finger on that string - know what i mean? It wasn't until later that I started thinking about intervals, what chord the notes were being played over, functions, etc.

In order to transcribe a song, It doesn't matter if you know the names of the notes or chords, but what matters is that you know the FUNCTION of them! And this is not accomplished by reading standard notation, it is accomplished by knowing theory so that you can apply the "chordal pattern" to the new key, or having a good ear. If you don't think about what you play, standard notation is the same as TAB.

I agree with most of what has been said "against" TAB, but I just had to say this.
 
Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
Just recently, I was looking all over the net for some bass transcriptions of Bach 2-part inventions to buy, and the only thing I could find were books which included both notation AND tab.
Just throw some duct tape over the tab parts. :D

A big part of attempting to master any instrument is learning to deal with the decision-making process involved in translating notes on the page into the physical technique needed to produce them, and from there into actual music.
Yes. Definitely. That is an art in an of itself. For many bass lines, it is not difficult to do this and even do it on the fly. Try doing it for a Bach Fugue though. You will quickly realize that the complexity of the music requires much more thought about how to best express a phrase. The arrangements I have been working on for the past 6 years or so have been reworked many times. Every time I play a piece I think of a new way to play a line using different finger positions. Eventually, my transcriptions settle into something that remains more or less static. If I did not have a reliable way to document my finger position decisions, I would undoubtedly forget them if I put the work down for a while. For me, tablature has allowed me to work on much more music than I would have been able to without it. I can put a piece down for a long time and come back to it without losing the finger position info that I spent so much time on. It would be extremely difficult to notate this information on staff notation. I have seen various methods for doing this but nothing that is as precise as tab.

When I started working on the first Cello Suite, I memorized it directly from the bass clef sheet music. I also started working on the 2nd Partita for Solo Violin the same way. When I started on the Chaconne, I realized that I would need something better.

So, anyway. I rely on tablature on a day to day basis for my arrangements. I think it is an excellent tool when used properly and shouldn't be stigmatized because it can be abused. It's a notation system that goes back hundreds of years. Some Bach works come down to us only in a form of tablature. It's the content of the music that counts. The notation system is almost incidental. Is a blind musician any less of a musician because they can't read notated music?

- Dave
 
Originally posted by Dave Grossman

Just throw some duct tape over the tab parts. :D

Believe it or not, I am actually considering doing this. My wife is an "Office Depot" addict, and she uses this stuff called "Post It correction and cover-up tape". This stuff comes in various widths, and the widest of them MIGHT be wide enough to cover up the TAB parts. It bothers me not a whit that there is a popular edition out there which includes both SN and Tab. But it absolutely BURNS MY *SS that there doesn't seem to be a SN only version on the market.

Yes. Definitely. That is an art in an of itself. For many bass lines, it is not difficult to do this and even do it on the fly. Try doing it for a Bach Fugue though. You will quickly realize that the complexity of the music requires much more thought about how to best express a phrase. The arrangements I have been working on for the past 6 years or so have been reworked many times. Every time I play a piece I think of a new way to play a line using different finger positions. Eventually, my transcriptions settle into something that remains more or less static. If I did not have a reliable way to document my finger position decisions, I would undoubtedly forget them if I put the work down for a while. For me, tablature has allowed me to work on much more music than I would have been able to without it. I can put a piece down for a long time and come back to it without losing the finger position info that I spent so much time on. It would be extremely difficult to notate this information on staff notation. I have seen various methods for doing this but nothing that is as precise as tab.


I agree, and yet still disagree. I agree that it is important with complex music to be able to notate fingering/position choices. Anyone who has ever prepared a "concert music" recital knows that this is an integral part of the preparation. Where I start to disagree is with the TAB part...if someone with bigger or smaller hands, or with different aesthetic/stylistic tastes than me is preparing the tab, then it really doesn't do me that much good.

As an example - back in college (both undergrad and grad) I majored in theory/comp with piano as my principal instrument. My piano teacher (the best teacher I have ever had, bar none, BTW) was about 5'1" and maybe 100lbs, and I was 6'2" and 185 lbs. She could stretch for a 9th, and I could stretch for an 11th. Many of her fingerings were not ideal for me, and many of my fingerings were impossible for her. She insisted that her students work from Urtext editions whenever possible, and that each student must determine how the music was to be fingered based on BOTH physical and musical considerations. Any music that already had an editor's fingerings on it was NOT encouraged, and if that was all there was, I was under strict orders to disregard the editor's fingerings (and all other editorial markings as well). I thought then, and still think now, that this part of my training - the PERSONALIZING of every piece of music I played - was one of the greatest educational experiences I have ever had.

While I admit that all the TAB is really doing is giving another person's viewpoint on these issues, I feel strongly that students should be given a piece of music as a CLEAN SLATE, and learn to make their own personal decisions about technique and musicality every time they play. Given the choice, I would ALWAYS prefer to have an Urtext edition than to rely on what some editor I know little about has had to say about it, even in those cases where I happen to agree with most of the editor's decisions.


.......{Edit}...........

It's the content of the music that counts. The notation system is almost incidental. Is a blind musician any less of a musician because they can't read notated music?

- Dave


Not at all. I have always felt that blind musicians have a musical advantage of sorts by only being able to approach the music from a SONIC perspective (and please, don't anybody try to construe this statement as some kind of PC "don't be insensitive to those with disabilities" nonsense). Notation is truly the "Middleman" between the sound of the original concept of the music and the actual reproduction of same. I also feel that editorial comments on technique, while valuable to beginners and even intermediate players, should be relegated to method books and left OUT of the actual music. But that's only one opinion, and I know that many others feel differently.

Chris
 
Originally posted by Chris Fitzgerald
...if someone with bigger or smaller hands, or with different aesthetic/stylistic tastes than me is preparing the tab, then it really doesn't do me that much good.
That's true. My arrangements aren't meant for anyone but me. Many of my fingering choices are very difficult but were selected because they respect the intent of the music better by putting certain notes on different strings or by playing all four parts of a quadruple-stop which is often extremely difficult.

Creating the fingering arrangments are part of the enjoyment of working on these pieces. It is very time consuming though. I can see the advantage of having this already done. It's no substitute for doing it yourself.

... I was under strict orders to disregard the editor's fingerings (and all other editorial markings as well). I thought then, and still think now, that this part of my training - the PERSONALIZING of every piece of music I played - was one of the greatest educational experiences I have ever had.

I work almost exclusively from the Baerenreiter New Bach Edition which is a urtext edition and doesn't include anything that isn't in the original manuscripts. I originally worked from an edition where the editor actually changed many of Bach's markings! I have about a dozen different editions of the Sonatas and Partitas and nearly that many editions of the Cello Suites. I'm willing to bet that they're all significantly different in regards to fingerings and other editorial markings.

While I admit that all the TAB is really doing is giving another person's viewpoint on these issues, I feel strongly that students should be given a piece of music as a CLEAN SLATE, and learn to make their own personal decisions about technique and musicality every time they play. Given the choice, I would ALWAYS prefer to have an Urtext edition than to rely on what some editor I know little about has had to say about it, even in those cases where I happen to agree with most of the editor's decisions.
You have a lot of insight in this issue and I find myself agreeing with your points. We have to realize that not everybody is as committed to the music in this regard. Some people have no interest in learning to read music or spend the time to come up with their own arrangements. I think it's important not to alienate people who have different goals than we do. For them learning songs from tablature is just fine. If that's what they want to do, I don't want to criticize them for it.

If I was teaching someone, I would have them do what I did when I started out. I would have them transcribe songs out in standard notation. I didn't really use tablature until I started on my Bach stuff. I still have many of my old transcriptions including some Yes and Rush.

- Dave
 
I agree with the thread starter, I've never understood all the anti-tab sentiment.
Yes it is far better to learn it by ear or tab it out yourself... If you have a lot of time on your hands!!!
I probably know around about two or three hundred songs. There is no way I would have had the time to sit down and figure them all out by myself. Its far more efficient to download a tab, at least as a starting point. If it isnt correct, it is a lot easier to simply correct it then it is to figure the entire thing out from scratch..
Yes, it is far better to learn from music notation then tab... if you have money to burn! The average bass notation book, if by some luck you can even find the bass music that you want, costs around $20. I have 1000 tabs on my computer that didnt cost me a cent.
Yes, you dont get rhythm or timing from tab, which is irrelevent if you've heard the song. Who covers a song without ever having heard it before?
Tab isnt handy in a band situation, but the tab tells you what notes to play and when, which, if you know your scales and your fretboard is all you need to know. All you have to do is adjust to fit the other musicians.
And finally, without tab a lot of people wouldnt have picked up the instrument to begin with. I know that in the beginning there was no way that I was disciplined enough to learn all music theory to play the instrument. I learned that as I learned how to play, but to start with it was tab that taught me how basslines worked, how to construct basslines and how to play songs.
Jim
 
Originally posted by Dave Grossman


We have to realize that not everybody is as committed to the music in this regard. Some people have no interest in learning to read music or spend the time to come up with their own arrangements. I think it's important not to alienate people who have different goals than we do. For them learning songs from tablature is just fine. If that's what they want to do, I don't want to criticize them for it.


Agreed. Really, I'm serious about that. At the same time, when somebody comes right out and asks the for opinions on "what's wrong with tab", I don't see anything wrong with coming right out and giving my opinion. I won't speak for the rest of CLAN TABEVIL, but it has been my general impression that much of the "TAB Bashing" that is done around here is intentionally WAAAAYYY over the top in an attempt to add a bit of humor into the discussion. Some people find that annoying. Some people recognize the irony (double irony?) and play along, thus joining in the fun. I suppose if the humor doesn't translate, it could seem mean, but I think that in most cases, there is little mean-spirited intent.

If I was teaching someone, I would have them do what I did when I started out. I would have them transcribe songs out in standard notation.


Funny you should mention that...One of the students I want the Bach transcriptions for also happens to be in my Chamber Orchestration class. The first part of the class is about transcription/notation, and the rest of the class will be transcribing 3-part Sinfonias or Fugues....but the bass student will have to do a couple of 2 part inventions instead. That will be great experience for him, but I don't always have that luxury.


I still have many of my old transcriptions including some Yes and Rush.

- Dave

I also have a stockpile of transcriptions, and I find it interesting to look back on the ones I did a while ago and find the mistakes/omissions in them...it just goes to show, it DOES get better with practice.


DURRL
 
THATS just it lizard king. i'm very old you know (37) and didnt start the bass (or any other instrument, besides the skinflute) until 36! last year i could barely know if the pitch was going up or down. so tabs along with professional instruction. is really a lifesaver. ive just finished tabbing my first song by ear. (parisienne walkways by gary moore) a simple song, but i feel good about myself. ill never be a great bass player, i just want to feel the music, ya know.
 
Playing by ear takes a while for some people to figure out. Took me about 1 and a half years for me. Not everyone is born w/ good listening. But, you can improve.

Of course tab is not the best form of communicating how to play something... but it is the easiest for beginners. Don't say that it is wrong to learn on tab... people play music for fun... don't make it an excercise. I say use tab for a while, but don't neglect to learn to transcribe by ear and read sheet music.

I guess point i'm trying to make is keep music fun.. if you wanna play tabs.. go for it. But if you want to become a good musician you can't learn just tab.
 
Originally posted by Oysterman

I wouldn't say it's _useless_ (to be honest, I've had good use for a few of them... shame on me :()... it is however not an excuse for NOT learning standard notation... like, why settle for the second best?

yeah. it's obviously not useless, but it _IS_ useless if you don't have a copy of the notation or a copy of the song to listen to - tab can't stand alone.

why even bother with drawing the neck? why not just have the string name ("e", "a", etc.) and the fret number. then you could convey a string of information textually to even an idiot ;) and still give the same amount that tab gives. shoot, that gives me an idea...

what if someone came up with a text-only version of tab - you could have groupings for sections, sub groupings for measures, and sub sub groups for individual notes, with information on the string, the fret, and the note duration. i would rather use the note and the octave, instead of the string and the fret, but i imagine most tab users aren't going to know their necks well enough to be able to use that. like this...

Code:
[4/4({e1.4}{e3.4}{a0.4}{a1.4})({a3.4}{d0.4}{d2.4}{d3.4})]

for a f major scale, starting on the f on the low e string. it gives the time sig - 4/4, the note duration, (the number after the string and fret - e1.4, where "e" is the string, "1" is the fret, and the "4" means quarter note duration), and it gives the measure structure which will imply accents.

like i said, i would prefer note names, as opposed to fret positions, but you could do it either way. in fact, this would be a better and quicker way to convey musical information textually than tab, since it could convey more information, and it could also be used to convey actual note names, and therefore the complete textual conversion of standard notation.

hmm...
 
JT, thats a really good idea! trademark that right now, you'll make a fortune! That would be a very good system for beginners, as the notes could be placed above the lyrics, in the same way that guitar chords are written down. JT, you are a genius!

Don't say that it is wrong to learn on tab... people play music for fun...

I agree, thats just it, a lot of people arent interested in being musicians, they just want to have some fun. I know a lot of friends who picked up the guitar after finding out how simple tab is. They have no musical ambitions, they just want to have some fun and to be able to hear something on the radio and to be able to play it. And for a lot of them, (I was one) something that started out as something just for fun, they got a lot more serious about and were inspired to learn everything else. Who can say that something that inspires people to pick up an instrument is bad?
Jim
 
I dont understand why everyone is so down on TABs. EVERYTHING that you can get your hands on to help you learn ANYTHING is positive. I use my ear, standard notation,tab,friends, I dont care what it is or where it comes from. DONOT give up and NEVER be to proud to read a piece of paper.Keep on woodshed'en brother and be encouraged, you will rock one day with a pocket FULL of tabs.
 
I'll try this one more time, only instead of three different replies, I'll address this to I'MABRICKLAYER, TRUSTSPAM, and FRETBUTT all at the same time. Ok guys, here's the deal:

Q: What is the NAME of THIS THREAD?

A: "What's wrong with tabs?"

Q: What did many people do while RESPONDING TO this thread?

A:They answered the very explicitly worded question and gave THEIR OPINIONS about what they thought was wrong with tabs.

Q: Is anybody going to get mad if you continue to use TABZZZ after reading this thread?

A: No.

Q: Does anybody who doesn't know you really care whether you use TABZ or not?

A: Probably not.

Q: Does everyone here and on this board have the right to their own opinion?

A: Yes. This includes TAB USERS as well as those who, like myself, feel that using TAB is taking the lazy road when that energy would be better spent learning to read music like a professional musician.

Q: Do I or any other member of CLAN TABEVIL think - even for a minute - that by voicing our opinions on TABZ we are going to make some big difference in lots of peoples lives by showing them the correct path?

A: Not really...but we still retain the right to answer the question when asked.

Regards,

DURRL TABEVIL
 
Q: Does anybody who doesn't know you really care whether you use TABZ or not?
They must, because whenever anybody posts a question about tab, they are inundated with people telling them about how using a tab is evil and is going to ruin their life :rolleyes:

using TAB is taking the lazy road when that energy would be better spent learning to read music like a professional musician.
If people have the time on their hands to do that and the money to burn on expensive sheet music, then power to them. Anyway, you'll find that a lot of people that use tabs do know how to read music.
Jim