When did foreign pricing creep up?

[Walking]

I saw a great deal on craigslist as the seller explained the guitar was worth more because it had the coveted 'second' marking stamped on the neck... True story.

PS I got a 1995 american telecaster for just under a thousand. Gibsons cost more, the customer can decide if they want to pay thereof. Asian guitars are pretty inexpensive used. Also, at least when dealing face to face, its always appropriate to ask for a discount off list. Worst they can do is say no.

 

[TolerancEJ]

My Conklin BDGT-7 was made in Indonesia. It sounds and plays excellent!

 

[CharlieMac]

Americans are not entitled to lower prices just because labor and wages are so much more expensive in the US than in these other countries. All those Indonesians want to send their children to college too. When everybody starts getting treated fairly we will see prices adjust all over the globe. The more stuff we buy from them. . .the more demand. . .prices go up.
And like the man says, just wait until the new tariffs kick in.

 

[Nephilymbass]

That’s interesting. Never heard of that before. Intonation has nothing to do with scale length to the best of my knowledge. I know other things like the setup or fret positioning or a too high nut could. But not the scale length itself. So can you explain how that works? I’m always interested in learning something new.

Yeah our guitarist played les Paul’s before switching to ESP ecllipses. It’s an issue. Gotta have a good ear to hear it but it’s there and it gets worse if you set up the Guitar in a tuning lower than standard so it think it’s much more of an issue for a lot of younger musicians who are more likely to use d, C or even B tunings and another reason younger players have been staying away from Gibson.

It’s known by these Gibson fanboys enough that they mentioned it as something Gibson should fix towards the end of this video. Even going as far as talking about how it was a contributing factor in why PRS guitars have been successful.

 

[JW56789]

So help me this isn't a political feeler, but does anyone know if the newly imposed tariffs either outgoing or incoming are going to apply to the great percentage of MI products that come from the Far East ?

 

[kodiakblair]

@CharlieMac
Well said Another point is the USA isn't the only market place. ESP/LTD, Ibanez etc sell 100's of 1000's all around the world. No reason to drop their prices just for a bite of the US market.

 

[40Hz]

Gotta have a good ear to hear it

Dunno…I have a very good ear and I’ve never heard it on my GF’s early 80s LP Custom so I’ll have to check it out sometime soon and see what you and your guitarist are talking about.

If it’s something that’s a problem when dropping down to ridiculously low tunings then I’m not going to worry about it since those super drop tunings sound like ass to me no matter what guitar is being used. If that’s somebody else's thing that’s fine. But if you’re deviating from the tuning your instrument and string guages are optimized for, experiencing issues can only be expected.

I still can’t see how scale length affects intonation unless you’re saying that when you’re tuning “incorrectly” (i.e. drop tuning ) the shorter scale length doesn’t let the strings have enough tension to produce the expected notes, then that much I can understand. But to me that’s not a problem with the instrument. It a problem with the way certain players are going outside the recommended operating parameters of that instrument.

I’ll have to listen to that whole video when I have a half hour to spare waiting for Rick Beato to get to the point. The guy has some solid info in the videos on his channel. But he takes forever to spit it out. He’s like Scott Devine - great stuff most times. But man do some of these dudes love to hear themselves talk.

Anyway, thx for the link. I’ll check it out later tonight.

 

[Nephilymbass]

Dunno…I have a very good ear and I’ve never heard it on my GF’s early 80s LP Custom so I’ll have to check it out sometime soon and see what you and your guitarist are talking about.

If it’s something that’s a problem when dropping down to ridiculously low tunings then I’m not going to worry about it since those super drop tunings sound like ass to me no matter what guitar is being used. If that’s somebody else's thing that’s fine. But if you’re deviating from the tuning your instrument and string guages are optimized for, experiencing issues can only be expected.

I still can’t see how scale length affects intonation unless you’re saying that when you’re tuning “incorrectly” (i.e. drop tuning ) the shorter scale length doesn’t let the strings have enough tension to produce the expected notes, then that much I can understand. But to me that’s not a problem with the instrument. It a problem with the way certain players are going outside the recommended operating parameters of that instrument.

I’ll have to listen to that whole video when I have a half hour to spare waiting for Rick Beato to get to the point. The guy has some solid info in the videos on his channel. But he takes forever to spit it out. He’s like Scott Devine - great stuff most times. But man do some of these dudes love to hear themselves talk.

Anyway, thx for the link. I’ll check it out later tonight.

You may not like alternate tunings but it’s a normal thing these days for modern rock and metal because the majority of people who listen to modern music do like it.

The deal with intonation and scale length is about room for error. For example the intonation on my dingwalls low b string is amazing and it doesn’t have true temperment frets but because the low b is 37” scale there’s more room for error. Think of it like a fretless bass. The longer the scale the more room there is for error. It’s actually easier to play longer scale fretless than a short scale fretless because the actually notes are farther apart.

 

[40Hz]

You may not like alternate tunings but it’s a normal thing these days for modern rock and metal because the majority of people who listen to modern music do like it.

The deal with intonation and scale length is about room for error. For example the intonation on my dingwalls low b string is amazing and it doesn’t have true temperment frets but because the low b is 37” scale there’s more room for error. Think of it like a fretless bass. The longer the scale the more room there is for error. It’s actually easier to play longer scale fretless than a short scale fretless because the actually notes are farther apart.

I don’t mind alternate tunings. When I play guitar I usually use open-G or use guitars strung for Nashville tuning. I’ll rarely play in Torres standard tuning. What I don’t care for is sludgy, clanky downtuning. I want to hear actual notes.

As to room for error…

If the frets are placed correctly (Gibson uses CNC so it’s as accurate as it comes) in relation to the scale length there’s no intonation issue. It’s not a matter of there being room for error. Frets are either installed correctly or they’re not. And even if they are, it’s not possible to put an instrument like a guitar into 100% accurate tuning. The G and usually the B string are always going to be slightly out relative to the other strings. That’s pretty much all guitars. Some people have tried playing games with the nut (Buzz Feiten et al) to make it more accurate. But it’s an inherent limitation of the instrument itself. And not something Gibson has screwed up.

I also disagree about fretless scales. I started on upright. Played that for several years and I found the shorter scale electric fretless necks were easier for me to get good intonation on. I actually prefer a 32” scale for fretless. So I think that’s more an individual preference than it is a hard fast rule.

 

[Basstigator]

You buy your bass and keep it for life. Problem solved. Make it the other guys problem Better yet, build your own from a kit if you want something new. I wouldn't ever pay today's retail prices myself. I would build. I've seen 50-70 % increases in some stores (over 2 years) . Of course, I stopped going there and stopped looking. And, trade wars should result in more manufacturing here. If there's a demand, then, you'll see it in the market eventually. The smart ones will have quality products at better prices.

 

[Nephilymbass]

I don’t mind alternate tunings. When I play guitar I usually use open-G or use guitars strung for Nashville tuning. I’ll rarely play in Torres standard tuning. What I don’t care for is sludgy, clanky downtuning. I want to hear actual notes.

As to room for error…

If the frets are placed correctly (Gibson uses CNC so it’s as accurate as it comes) in relation to the scale length there’s no intonation issue. It’s not a matter of there being room for error. Frets are either installed correctly or they’re not. And even if they are, it’s not possible to put an instrument like a guitar into 100% accurate tuning. The G and usually the B string are always going to be slightly out relative to the other strings. That’s pretty much all guitars. Some people have tried playing games with the nut (Buzz Feiten et al) to make it more accurate. But it’s an inherent limitation of the instrument itself. And not something Gibson has screwed up.

I also disagree about fretless scales. I started on upright. Played that for several years and I found the shorter scale electric fretless necks were easier for me to get good intonation on. I actually prefer a 32” scale for fretless. So I think that’s more an individual preference than it is a hard fast rule.

Not an upright player but I think 34” fretless is way easier to play than 30” that’s besides the point though. I was trying to explain something and it seemed to sidetrack the conversation

Do you know what true temperament is?
Take a look at the fret on this neck.

Do you see how the frets aren’t straight? That’s a design meant to improve intonation across the entire neck. If you scale it up/longer the frets would actually become more normal looking because the longer the scale the further the distance between the notes. if you scale it down the frets actually become more deformed. It’s a little different than basses. Basses typically are in the 30-35” scale length range. Much longer scale than guitars And it’s actually the high strings on a Gibson Guitar that are the most troublesome to get the intonation nice on. You are right it is impossible without true temperament frets to get a Guitar intonated perfectly all over the neck. But Gibson’s scale length being 20mm shorter than fenders for example actually makes it a little worse. Now obviously for those that use e standard tuning it’s not that bad, I s it records have been done with people playing amazing stuff on Gibson’s but the problem is amplified when you start using lower tunings. To a certain point some people actually like that tension that it creates. Like our guitar player mainly uses guitars in b tuning and he doesn’t like extra long scale guitars. He did own a 27” baritone Guitar at one point. So a certain amount of dissonaance or whatever you want to call it is just rock and roll. My point though is for the guys playing modern stuff with lower tunings. it’s a hassle. Which is part of why Gibson basically become the go to “dad band” Guitar. Now bass wise I think Gibson thunderbirds in particular are pretty cool.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

So despite playing bass for over 20 years, I also dabble in the dark side (guitar) and have been looking for a guitar for some home recording and a lil bit of live stuff. Was stoked for a Gibson Explorer that was on closeout at my local ScamAsh but couldnt get down with it going out of tune every song and the fact that the paint was checking on an instrument that hadn't even been sold yet.
So I start looking at other options from Jackson, Schecter, LTD etc..... WOAH!!!!! When on earth did Indonesian and S.Korean models start chillin at the $900-1200 price point?

Did I totally miss the memo? Am I justified in refusing to pay that amount to a parent company for a farmed out version of their product? Should I not worry because the quality is great from these places now? Do you have any ideas for me? Do you know the secrets of life????

Must be the trade war.

Seriously, their reason for the increase in price is because they are selling them for as much as the market will bear, and not a penny less. Economics 101 says, if you raise the price on entry level, three things happen, and all good. One, you make more money on your entry level sales, or you drive customers to more upscale instruments with bigger markups, and finally, it makes it easier to raise prices on your flagship models.

 

[TCRV]

If you scale it up/longer the frets would actually become more normal looking because the longer the scale the further the distance between the notes. if you scale it down the frets actually become more deformed.

I'm not exactly a physics whiz, but to me this sounds like it would work the exact opposite way? if you have more distance between notes, wouldn't you end up with more distance between where the note falls in even temperament and true temperament, and therefore more deformity?

 

[Nephilymbass]

I'm not exactly a physics whiz, but to me this sounds like it would work the exact opposite way? if you have more distance between notes, wouldn't you end up with more distance between where the note falls in even temperament and true temperament, and therefore more deformity?

I know, I agree. It does sound like it would work the opposite way. Part of why it was interesting to me. Check out some good photos of true temperament guitars and basses in different scales. It’s pretty cool. For example a couple the frets on a 34” bass look like they are off from being parallel but the frets aren’t all bent to hell /squiggly like they are on a true temperament Guitar that’s 25 1/2”

 

[kodiakblair]

Must be the trade war.

Seriously, their reason for the increase in price is because they are selling them for as much as the market will bear, and not a penny less. Economics 101 says, if you raise the price on entry level, three things happen, and all good. One, you make more money on your entry level sales, or you drive customers to more upscale instruments with bigger markups, and finally, it makes it easier to raise prices on your flagship models.

Isn't that Fender's business model already ?

 

[TCRV]

I know, I agree. It does sound like it would work the opposite way. Part of why it was interesting to me. Check out some good photos of true temperament guitars and basses in different scales. It’s pretty cool. For example a couple the frets on a 34” bass look like they are off from being parallel but the frets aren’t all bent to hell /squiggly like they are on a true temperament Guitar that’s 25 1/2”

these instruments all look like somebody tried to draw the frets on by hand and it really endears them to me lol

 

[Nephilymbass]

these instruments all look like somebody tried to draw the frets on by hand and it really endears them to me lol

I agree. Not really my thing I was just trying to provide a visual to explain the Gibson intonation issue

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Isn't that Fender's business model already ?

And has been for over 20 years.

But really, adjusting the dollar for inflation, the American Jazz Bass has been priced at about a week or two of wages for the average working man for the last 60 years. The P-Bass, a little less.

 

[Jim C]

I'm going to say the biggest jump started in the mid 80's based soley on the idea that the quality went up so high that it was flat out worth it.
Some of the Japanese Fender's command big money.

 

[MordBass]

And has been for over 20 years.

But really, adjusting the dollar for inflation, the American Jazz Bass has been priced at about a week or two of wages for the average working man for the last 60 years. The P-Bass, a little less.

I love that you put it that way. I had a debate about video games with a coworker who was saying they cost too much so I broke it down by hours of minimum wage labor needed to purchase..... wow did that shed some light.