If Mike Lull or Roger Sadowsky modifies the electronics in a Fender Jazz for a customer does that mean that bass is now a Lull or a Sadowsky?
LOL, I don't think so.
LOL, I don't think so.
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When is a "modded" bass not original?
- Thread starter jeff_bass28
- Start date
When that bass no longer sounds as it did hot off the assembly line and/or when the hardware is mostly aftermarket (maybe only 20% original. I've seen and heard the results of so many mods to Rickenbackers (mostly pickup changes) and closing your eyes, you have no idea you are listening to a Ric. I would say the audio frequency profile is changed and/or major hardware components (bridge, tuners, pickups, control knobs) have been changed.
I have a Gibson RD Artist that has the original pickups, bridge, and tuners. It has been repainted. But the features that have been changed are the neck, which has been shaved on the back and width, and the headstock was altered from 2-on-a-side to inline-4 like a Gibson Explorer. I still consider this an RD because it still sounds like an RD Artist. If the active Moog board were removed, it would no longer be an RD Artist. Likewise, if different pickups were but in that had different frequency charateristics, it is no longer an RD Artist. It is a Mongrel.
If Mike Lull or Roger Sadowsky modifies the electronics in a Fender Jazz for a customer does that mean that bass is now a Lull or a Sadowsky?
LOL, I don't think so.
It is not a Fender Jazz either.
One question
If Jimmy got a new heart, is he still Jimmy?
Strange thing..i would like also to buy a vintage p bass with all parts original, but still i would replace some (bridge) but still would not want to by same bass with new bridge installed...oh well.
If Jimmy got a new heart, is he still Jimmy?
Strange thing..i would like also to buy a vintage p bass with all parts original, but still i would replace some (bridge) but still would not want to by same bass with new bridge installed...oh well.
One question
If Jimmy got a new heart, is he still Jimmy?
What about if Jimmy was cloned?
What about if Jimmy was cloned?
What makes Jimmy himself is his personality---the parts don't count. On a guitar, primary parts make the "sound" or personality, change those, and you have a different guitar. Give Jimmy a lobotomy or he acquires Alzheimer's, I guarantee people will say it looks like Jimmy, but it is not the Jimmy they know.
If Jimmy were cloned? How many Fender Jazzes are out there?
Like the collector car marketplace, original means ORIGINAL.
ANY modification makes it non-original.
Most mods are reversable but thats what a mod is. A modification from stock original.
What is worth more to you , a 66 Jazz with the original pick-ups and wireing or a 66 Jazz with Barts and 14k gold hardware.
Obviously the Barts will sound better than the stock pickups and the solid gold hardware is worth more than the stamped steel parts ,but an untouched original example is wort more because it is a,untouched original.
ANY modification makes it non-original.
Most mods are reversable but thats what a mod is. A modification from stock original.
What is worth more to you , a 66 Jazz with the original pick-ups and wireing or a 66 Jazz with Barts and 14k gold hardware.
Obviously the Barts will sound better than the stock pickups and the solid gold hardware is worth more than the stamped steel parts ,but an untouched original example is wort more because it is a,untouched original.
... That contention may find some agreement among those who see the "classic" Jazz Bass or Precision Bass as the only style worthy to carry those names on the headstock, it seems Fender sees it differently. Over the years they have made many changes on their own instruments and kept the name. I once had a "Telecaster" with a hollow body and dual humbuckers all factory still said Fender Telecaster on the headstock. I guess the 1st big change in basses anyway was when the original 51 style P bass changed to the 57 style.The list goes on ... Warwick has several iterations of the Thumb bass, Music Man added a pickup to one version of the Stingray, Gibson the EB-3 in two neck scales etc:
So if a tech/hack/owner/Bozo makes changes that takes it out of the realm of being an "original" instrument in the classic sense then it's not a Jazz Bass or Precision Bass anymore, but if Fender "mods" the bass it's OK?
... Come-on just messin and playin Devils avocate here ... made ya think though.
What possible difference can it make if an instrument is original? Unless you subscribe to the "precious" theory of old stuff.
My Toyota Matrix has had the catalytic converter and part of the exhaust pipe replaced. So now it's not **REALLY** a Toyota Matrix?
Before I sold my Gretsch Chet Atkins Country Gentleman for many times what I paid for it, I was warned not to replace the frozen, inoperable, but by-God-original pots with actual functioning new ones. ***! This is ridiculous.
Which would you rather have: all original or one that has been repaired, and likely improved? My '51 P RI has a 4-saddle bridge. I guess I'm just an unrepentant sinner.
My Toyota Matrix has had the catalytic converter and part of the exhaust pipe replaced. So now it's not **REALLY** a Toyota Matrix?
Before I sold my Gretsch Chet Atkins Country Gentleman for many times what I paid for it, I was warned not to replace the frozen, inoperable, but by-God-original pots with actual functioning new ones. ***! This is ridiculous.
Which would you rather have: all original or one that has been repaired, and likely improved? My '51 P RI has a 4-saddle bridge. I guess I'm just an unrepentant sinner.
I think the comparison b/t a modded SX and a Pre-CBS Fender is actually a good illustration of my earlier post about intrinsic value vs. use value (collector vs. player). While there are some people that may go out and pay 15k for a Pre-CBS Fender I imagine that there are precious few that do so and really think that it's going to sound and play better than something they could buy new for a similar price, or even a more beat up/altered version of the same bass for 10K (wouldn't a Fodera play better). They're paying for the vibe, the rarity, for the status perhaps, and for the bass being in "original" (as the topic heading asks) condition, obviously this comes down to supply. All these things are part of the intrinsic value. And bone stock has more intrinsic value (at least in this case). Very few people, on the other hand, buy an SX purely for its intrinsic value, rather they buy them for their use value, therefore (in my estimation) an SX with increased use value correlates with higher value, because at the moment there are no supply problems to drive up intrinsic value. And yes, I think that has a lot to do with identity. The "identity" of the Fender might not be changed any more than the SX, but since they are valued for different things the sensitivity of the vintage market to originality suggests (to me at least), that even relatively small changes do change the identity of an instrument to some degree. The fact that the SX increases in value while the Fender decreases doesn't imply that the identity of one changes, but not of the other. I'm trying to use market forces as a vaguely empirical point of comparison. Oh well...
There's an interesting sense that an instrument has an essence that transcends the parts that make it up. Jimmy with a new heart is still Jimmy b/c he has a personality, a consciousness, and maybe a soul (depending on what you believe). Does a bass?
There's an interesting sense that an instrument has an essence that transcends the parts that make it up. Jimmy with a new heart is still Jimmy b/c he has a personality, a consciousness, and maybe a soul (depending on what you believe). Does a bass?
Yes, but my argument was that "value" is orthogonal to the topic of this thread.
The heading is ambigous. But if you read the whole OP, it clearly states that it's about original identity, not original condition. The OP explicitly mentions modded basses. It's quite self evident that a modded bass is not in original condition, is it not? I mean that is pretty much the definition of the word " modified".
I'm just sayin' that market forces is not a valid empirical point of comparison in this case. Reason being that change in resale value is not a function of changed identity. It seems we both agree on that now, too.
That is a good question. Now we're on topic again
No, the word means slightly different things in different contexts. This is not about the collector car marketplace. This is about whether a modded bass maintains the identity of the original design.
Let's see more pics of modded basses, and let's see some well founded argument regarding whether they are still "bass X" or not.
I'd personally say that a jazz with Sadowsky electronics is still a jazz. Every one I know would refer to it as a jazz rather than a frankenbass. It's still a Fender to. It's certainly not a Sadowsky.
Heck even the darkstarred jazz in the pic is still a jazz to me, but a borderline case indeed.
I'm not so sure about the big block beeing a P though, despite what fender says.
It would have to come down to tone, and I have yet to actually hear a big block.
What the manufacturer sold is what the manufacturer intended. Therefore any mod makes it not original.
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I swapped the body for a more jazz-ish shape, cocobolo over mahogany; added a maple/mahogany neck; Kent Armstrong pickups; and an EMG pre.
But I kept the original strap buttons, so... its still a P!
I swapped the body for a more jazz-ish shape, cocobolo over mahogany; added a maple/mahogany neck; Kent Armstrong pickups; and an EMG pre.
But I kept the original strap buttons, so... its still a P!
My original point didn't have anything to do with resale value.
My point was, when an instrument is produced, the manufacturer has a specific intent for that instrument as to its sound, looks, etc.
When you change the original intent of "Bass X" to the point where it is no longer recognizable as "Bass X," why then sing the praises of "Bass X?" What you have is not "Bass X" any longer.
I'm all for modding your bass. That's fine. I've done it. But I hear some people say "My Bass X was a complete turd until I did this and this and this to it, and added this and these, and one of those; and swapped this part for that part. Now I love it! The Bass X is the best bass ever made! Everyone should get one!"
Well, guess what? Go and pick up and un-modded "Bass X." It's still a turd, right?
I would like to add a second point to this.
No one cares.
Get a bass, do what you want to it; as long as you're happy with it.
My point was, when an instrument is produced, the manufacturer has a specific intent for that instrument as to its sound, looks, etc.
When you change the original intent of "Bass X" to the point where it is no longer recognizable as "Bass X," why then sing the praises of "Bass X?" What you have is not "Bass X" any longer.
I'm all for modding your bass. That's fine. I've done it. But I hear some people say "My Bass X was a complete turd until I did this and this and this to it, and added this and these, and one of those; and swapped this part for that part. Now I love it! The Bass X is the best bass ever made! Everyone should get one!"
Well, guess what? Go and pick up and un-modded "Bass X." It's still a turd, right?
I would like to add a second point to this.
No one cares.
Get a bass, do what you want to it; as long as you're happy with it.
+1 here; I've never understood why guys route out an old fender p for a jazz pup: what a great excuse to buy another bass! I'm always looking for excuses to buy another bass, lol.
