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when is a subwoofer needed?

#21
If you can afford a KSub, I can attest that it's a good choice. If weight isn't a major issue the Yorkville LS608 is better and costs much less, but it's passive and 86 lbs. Match it with a Peavey IPR 3000 and nothing its size can touch it.

I'm not a fan of powered subs, almost all run amps at 2 ohms. I've ran my LS808's with an IPR 1600 bridged (1600W into 4 ohms) and an IPR 3000 in stereo mode (500W x 2 into 8 ohms) and the 3000 kicked the 1600's ass convincingly despite being rated almost 40% lower. Bridging an IPR 3000 into one LS608 loads each amp at 4 ohms for a total of 1680W, a perfect match for the 1700W LS608. At 103dB sensitivity it's freakishly powerful for its size. Yorkville doesn't exaggerate specs either, they have a 2-year even-if-you-fry-it-deliberately warranty, they don't benefit from getting customers to try to get their products to do what they can't.

You need special cables to bridge an IPR amp, but they're easy to make.
 
#23
Side noob question here:
I go straight to PA (no rig). When you guys say 'Kick and Keys only to Sub' does that mean they DO NOT go through the PA or that they go through both? I'm assuming both but then that means you need to have a separate mixer or something to take those channels to the sub?

We don't have a sub or mix board so I'm unfamiliar with a sub setup and how you would separate the different instruments...

:hiding:
 
#24
SevenJacks said:
Side noob question here:
I go straight to PA (no rig). When you guys say 'Kick and Keys only to Sub' does that mean they DO NOT go through the PA or that they go through both? I'm assuming both but then that means you need to have a separate mixer or something to take those channels to the sub?

We don't have a sub or mix board so I'm unfamiliar with a sub setup and how you would separate the different instruments...

:hiding:
Click to expand...

They go to both. You run a crossover network between the mains and sub. Your board's main output gets sent to the crossover and divided from there into the amps that power the mains/subs. Frequencies above point x go to the mains and frequencies below point x go to the subs. Then you use the channel eq to adjust the sound on a per channel basis (how much lows you want from the subs and compensating for room characteristics). Ideally you pick a track with a steady kick pattern and/or bassline to set the crossover frequency and sub/main level ratio. Once that is done play a good reference track (a track or project that is mixed to your liking, the way you want the system to sound) and set the system's master eq to your liking. Once that is done it's as simple as setting individual levels and eq for each channel as I mentioned before :-)
 
#27
SevenJacks said:
Side noob question here:
I go straight to PA (no rig). When you guys say 'Kick and Keys only to Sub' does that mean they DO NOT go through the PA or that they go through both? I'm assuming both but then that means you need to have a separate mixer or something to take those channels to the sub?

We don't have a sub or mix board so I'm unfamiliar with a sub setup and how you would separate the different instruments...

:hiding:
Click to expand...

You can also aux feed your subs. If you have an aux send that isn't being used for monitors you can assign instruments such as kick,bass, keys to that aux and and keep the rest of the instruments/vocals out of the subs.
 
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#28
modulusman said:
You can also aux feed your subs. If you have an aux send that isn't being used for monitors you can assign instruments such as kick,bass, keys to that aux and and keep the rest of the instruments/vocals out of the subs.
Click to expand...

^ Yep, even more control that way. I just figured I was already too in depth as an answer to the question asked and thought I should quit while I was ahead :p
 
#32
Big +1 to subs on an Aux.

A lot of times it is necessary to add-in more bottom as the night goes on whether due to the room filling up, ear fatigue or both. Rather than turning up the whole mix (and killing people with midrange), you can push up just (or primarily) the sub mix.
 
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#33
camthebassman said:
I follow the logic of the AUX Send technique for isolating channels for the subs, but why include the keyboard? The keyboard is a full range instrument. Should it not be in the mains?
Click to expand...

Some people like that thundering bottom from the keys. If you have a bass player then the keys player shouldn't even be playing that low or run through the subs cause that just muds things up IMO, but each band/person has a preference.
 
#34
Thanks. I think I understand now. Run everything through the mains and send bass and kick also to the sub. I was hoping to avoid a crossover in the system to keep the 12" mains from having to drive the sub 100hz (+/-) freqs. I suppose I could attenuate the main signl with the equalizer. I'm in danger of hijacking this thread I might start a new one. thanks
 
#35
camthebassman said:
Thanks. I think I understand now. Run everything through the mains and send bass and kick also to the sub. I was hoping to avoid a crossover in the system to keep the 12" mains from having to drive the sub 100hz (+/-) freqs. I suppose I could attenuate the main signl with the equalizer. I'm in danger of hijacking this thread I might start a new one. thanks
Click to expand...

What amps do you have/plan on using? Most will have built in dip switch selectable high and low pass filters. They may not be ideal, but better than nothing. You could attempt to just "eq" the overlap out if you don't use a x-over/filter, but you could be inducing phase problems by the time you got a wide enough Q to cancel out the overlapped frequencies. You'd really be making it hard on yourself going that route.
 
#36
i thought most full range speakers had a high-pass filter. then you run a line from the main to the sub, and the sub has it's own low-pass filter. i know you can't use this method if running through the board's aux's but that's what i planned on doing.
 
#37
hgregs said:
i thought most full range speakers had a high-pass filter. then you run a line from the main to the sub, and the sub has it's own low-pass filter. i know you can't use this method if running through the board's aux's but that's what i planned on doing.
Click to expand...

On powered systems (the mains and subs have their own built in amplifiers) this is usually true, but if you're running a passive system (you need external amps to power the mains or sub) most passive speakers don't have any filters since they assume you will take care of that pre-amplifier.
 
#39
lokikallas said:
Kick and keys. That's all that needs to be said. It's not just for bass, as you say, your amp can handle that, but the kick shouldn't be wasting watts in the mains. Keys can destroy mains very easily. You sound guy was right. You may not need anything crazy, but a little sub can go a long way to clean up the mains by running them more efficiently.
Click to expand...

If anyone insists on running Keys through the subs, I quit the band on the spot. Keys should not even have low end in the mix at all. Sonic space - everyone must abide.
 
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