Which mode with which chord?

[DaveAceofBass]

I thought Functional Harmony was about having a home-base tone called the Tonic (ever heard of Tonal Music?).

I also thought one unit of harmony is a chord, and movement from one chord to another is called a harmonic progression.

But you say....



Either Schenker's theory of tonal music is completely wrong, or you should ask for your money back.

You are incorrect. In a modal tune like "So What", there is still a Tonic. C is still the Tonic of the D Dorian mode, and Db is the Tonic of the Eb Dorian mode.

One definition in a book by saxophone/improv. teacher Gary Keller from the University of Miami is as follows:
"Functional Harmony: Dominant to tonic of 'II V I' type harmonic progressions. Also referred to as 'common practice' harmony. It is typical of the baroque and classical eras, as well as 'bop' style jazz and standard songs."

You're kind of right on the harmonic progressions definition. I'm not trying to argue, just to clarify what you already know. I don't claim to be theoretical genius, but I've done my homework, and I'm working on my graduate degree in music. So, one persons definition can vary slightly, the main thing would be to not get confused by what one person calls something and another has a different name for it.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

You are incorrect. In a modal tune like "So What", there is still a Tonic. C is still the Tonic of the D Dorian mode, and Db is the Tonic of the Eb Dorian mode.

I disagree. C and Db aren't the tonics for So What. You can't have a tonic that doesn't act like a tonic. If a bird doesn't walk like a duck, quack like a duck, look like a duck, or swim like a duck, it probably isn't a duck. If these notes were the tonics, you'd be more likely to see ii-V-Is, or at least V-Is, in C and Db, in the basic harmony of the tune, and at some point you'd typically see the harmony resolve, even if only briefly, to C or Db. But you don't, and the reason you don't is that So What is a modal tune, based on modes centered on D and Eb; it's not a tune that exemplifies functional harmony in C or Db in any meaningful sense.

Modal tunes have tonal centers, not tonics in the sense of major-minor harmony. The tonal centers of So What are D and Eb--a dorian modality based on D, and a dorian modality based on Eb. In some case, as in modal music, a mode can serve as its own tonality (or modality, rather), it doesn't have to be (and often shouldn't be) understood as having any relation to a putative major scale of origin at all. Plenty of music is purely modal, and has little relation to straightahead Western major-minor musical conventions.

It doesn't make any sense to say that So What is in C and Db, or derived from C and Db, or has C and Db as its tonics. There's no functional C major or Db major tonality there. To me that's one problem with the way modes are taught as always coming off degrees of the major or minor scale: we get impressed with the idea that every time you see a mode, there's gotta be some underlying major (or minor) scale lurking in the background that's the "real" tonality, and this simply isn't true. The whole basis of modal music (as distinct from the use of modes in "standard harmony," which is a different thing) is that the mode itself *is* the tonality/modality, it's not some derivative of some major or minor tonality.

 

[Pacman]

The tonic to D dorian is D.

There's absolutely no other way to look at it. This type of thinking is exactly why teaching the modes the way we do is a disservice to young learners.

The modes are scales unto themselves. By learning them in relation to a 'parent mode', you fail to learn them correctly.

 

[DaveAceofBass]

Both of you are right. D is tonic of a D Dorian mode when used in a modal tune like "So What". My explanation was not correct. However, if you're trying to school me, you're both getting nowhere. I don't mean to be rude, but let's stay on task. My point was simply to help the thread starter who doesn't understand the usefulness of the modes. When I play "So What", I don't necessarily think C Major, but I can if I want to, as long as I bring back the sound of D Dorian. Everyone has different ways of thinking about it.

The main point I was trying to make is that D Dorian has a parent scale, C Major. Regardless of whether or not there is functional harmony, modes are derived from parent scales. The person who started this thread needs help understanding how to use these modes. Rather than debating with me, let's try to help this guy out. Several perspectives can only help him.

As for me, I've got a Bachelor of Music in Jazz Performance, and I have to tell you that I DO understand this stuff, regardless of how well I explain it. I know that many of you on here do understand too, I'm not saying I'm any different. All I'm saying is, let's help this guy understand how to use modes. It's pointless to sit here and argue. We should be helping each other make better music.

 

[DaveAceofBass]

The tonic to D dorian is D.

There's absolutely no other way to look at it. This type of thinking is exactly why teaching the modes the way we do is a disservice to young learners.

The modes are scales unto themselves. By learning them in relation to a 'parent mode', you fail to learn them correctly.

I know what you mean. Let's look at it this way:

Major scales have a distinct pattern of whole and half steps,
W-W-H-W-W-W-H
Modes sound different because the pattern is different. Dorian is:
W-H-W-W-W-H-W
There are also modes derived from Harmonic and Melodic Minor, Dimished scales (there is only one mode of diminished), and other scales like Hungarian Major. These distinct patterns create unique sounds. By superimposing certain groups of notes, we can create upperstructure sounds, such as 7-9-11-13, or stick to the bottom of the chord, such as R-3-5. We can also alter our extensions on certain chords, for example, b7-b9-#9-#11-b13. Hope that helps.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Both of you are right. D is tonic of a D Dorian mode when used in a modal tune like "So What". My explanation was not correct. However, if you're trying to school me, you're both getting nowhere. I don't mean to be rude, but let's stay on task. My point was simply to help the thread starter who doesn't understand the usefulness of the modes.

No need to be so defensive. Nobody's attacking you. Disagreement is not an attack.

I agree entirely that the whole point is to help the OP. But we don't help by giving explanations that, as you admit, aren't correct. We help each other best by getting it right, wouldn't you say? That's the spirit in which I posted, and I'm sure it's where Pacman was coming from too.

 

[Pacman]

I know what you mean. Let's look at it this way:

Major scales have a distinct pattern of whole and half steps,
W-W-H-W-W-W-H
Modes sound different because the pattern is different. Dorian is:
W-H-W-W-W-H-W

This is how the modes should be taught. And is what I've been saying around here for years. Sure, it's harder to learn that way - but it's also the only way to really understand the tonalities.


I'm pretty sure the original poster isn't ready for upper extensions yet, either....

 

[Richard Lindsey]

The main point I was trying to make is that D Dorian has a parent scale, C Major. Regardless of whether or not there is functional harmony, modes are derived from parent scales. The person who started this thread needs help understanding how to use these modes. Rather than debating with me, let's try to help this guy out. Several perspectives can only help him.

But this is precisely the part that's not entirely correct. Yes, you can derive the common modes that way, but no, they are not always derived from or inherently related to a parent scale. It's a common misconception, but it's not borne out in reality. Modes can exist as tonalities/modalities of their own, without reference to a parent scale. They *are* scales.

And before you get ruffled, I'm not trying to school you, I'm disagreeing with you. Disagreement is not necessarily a bad thing, if it leads you to a clearer understanding of what's going on and isn't just a pissing contest. From offering arguments and counterarguments, there's the potential to end up with a "better" perspective that is helpful for everyone.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

This is how the modes should be taught. And is what I've been saying around here for years. Sure, it's harder to learn that way - but it's also the only way to really understand the tonalities.


I'm pretty sure the original poster isn't ready for upper extensions yet, either....

+1. Lest we forget, the OP is just starting with modes. Small steps are warranted at first, I'd imagine.

 

[Snarf]

Okay, I kinda glazed over at whatever the argument was. So What, Impressions, the A section to Take Five, etc., are all modally composed. The tonic isn't the tonic to the relative major, since you never even GET to the relative major. It's like a blues tune. In an F blues, you sure as hell don't call it C.

 

[Erick Lam]

In a modal tune like "So What", there is still a Tonic. C is still the Tonic of the D Dorian mode, and Db is the Tonic of the Eb Dorian mode.

This was the error. So What has a tonic but it's not C. It's D.

You could say that C major is parent to D dorian, but C ionian is sister to D dorian. "When the Major's away, the modes will play."

The way you think it influnces the way it sounds.

And make sure you listen to So What:

 

[DaveAceofBass]

But this is precisely the part that's not entirely correct. Yes, you can derive the common modes that way, but no, they are not always derived from or inherently related to a parent scale. It's a common misconception, but it's not borne out in reality. Modes can exist as tonalities/modalities of their own, without reference to a parent scale. They *are* scales.

And before you get ruffled, I'm not trying to school you, I'm disagreeing with you. Disagreement is not necessarily a bad thing, if it leads you to a clearer understanding of what's going on and isn't just a pissing contest. From offering arguments and counterarguments, there's the potential to end up with a "better" perspective that is helpful for everyone.

First, let's neither of us get ruffled.

Indeed you are correct, the modes are scales that do create their own tonality. I agree fully that with no reference to the parent scale, in a sense they aren't necessarily derived from that....but then, I think to myself where all of this came from.

We use these tools in improvised music like jazz or rock, but they originated from our great classical composers. As I said, I'm no expert, but I think often times in classical music modes were played, but they may not have been thought of as unique tonalities. Many times they come back to the parent key. So, in my mind, the modes are all derived from parent scales. The main question is, will you be using them that way? In the case of our little example, "So What", the Dorian modes never refer to their parent scales. Nonetheless, since as harmony evolved from Gregorian Chant to Modern music, the common major and minor tonal centers are where the modes as they're now being used still came from there. To my recollection, and correct me if I'm wrong, the first "scales" were pentatonics as used by the Gregorian monks. Eventually we came to use Major and Minor scales, and their variations are the modes. That's what I mean they are derived from parent scales. The fact is that you're absolutely correct, in alot of modal music nowadays, there is no reference to the parent scales. The modes create unique tonalities, which is what we're talking about here.

 

[DaveAceofBass]

Now, please don't even think of bringing up 12-tone rows...

 

[Poop-Loops]

What the hell is going on here? I don't understand ANYTHING!

Tonic? ***? I THOUGHT I understood modes, but now I don't even know what a C note is!

 

[mb17180116]

The tonic to D dorian is D.

There's absolutely no other way to look at it. This type of thinking is exactly why teaching the modes the way we do is a disservice to young learners.

The modes are scales unto themselves. By learning them in relation to a 'parent mode', you fail to learn them correctly.

This sounds like what my bass teacher told me at my most recent lesson trying to clear some things up. he said stop thinking about chord progressions, keys, and all that complicated stuff and look at it this way: somebody plays a chord, you play the aeolian (or minor) starting on the root of the chord, and youve got an evil sound, like in a lot of metal. Play the Ionian (major) or the dorian starting on the root, you get a more upbeat, pop kind of sound...and so on. This made it a little easier to understand why there are modes.

 

[Pacman]

You're getting there!

Major sounding modes are:
Lydian
Major
Mixolydian

Minor sounding modes are:
Dorian
Phrygian
Aolean

You could call the Locrian mode dimished sounding because of the min7b5 chord...

Another way to look at modes (and the way I prefer to teach them) is all of them in relation to the same major scale:

Lydian - 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 8
Major - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Dorian - 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8
Aolean - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8
Phrygian - 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8
Locrian - 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 8

This is a great way to learn to construct the modes, without getting into the confusion caused by learning them the other way...

 

[mb17180116]

Another way to look at modes (and the way I prefer to teach them) is all of them in relation to the same major scale:

Lydian - 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 8
Major - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Dorian - 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8
Aolean - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8
Phrygian - 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8
Locrian - 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 8

This is a great way to learn to construct the modes, without getting into the confusion caused by learning them the other way...

Actually this is exactly how my teacher taught me. He drew out all the intervals in a line, which would be the chromatic scale. Then he showed me how you could just give the intervals to any scale or mode instead of just thinking of it as a shape...that way i could figure out on my own how to do each mode or scale wherever i wanted to on the fretboard. That way its easier on him too because he doesnt have to draw out the shapes for everything.

 

[tbone0813]

What are the distinct characteristics of a modal song like 'So What', and a non-modal song? In other words what do I hear that will distinguish this for me? If I listened to 'So What' I could have never told you that it was a modal song.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

First, let's neither of us get ruffled.

Indeed you are correct, the modes are scales that do create their own tonality. I agree fully that with no reference to the parent scale, in a sense they aren't necessarily derived from that....but then, I think to myself where all of this came from.

We use these tools in improvised music like jazz or rock, but they originated from our great classical composers. As I said, I'm no expert, but I think often times in classical music modes were played, but they may not have been thought of as unique tonalities. Many times they come back to the parent key. So, in my mind, the modes are all derived from parent scales. The main question is, will you be using them that way? In the case of our little example, "So What", the Dorian modes never refer to their parent scales. Nonetheless, since as harmony evolved from Gregorian Chant to Modern music, the common major and minor tonal centers are where the modes as they're now being used still came from there. To my recollection, and correct me if I'm wrong, the first "scales" were pentatonics as used by the Gregorian monks. Eventually we came to use Major and Minor scales, and their variations are the modes. That's what I mean they are derived from parent scales. The fact is that you're absolutely correct, in alot of modal music nowadays, there is no reference to the parent scales. The modes create unique tonalities, which is what we're talking about here.

I see what you're saying. You may be right to an extent about the ultimate origin of some of this stuff; I'm not enough of a musicologist to be totally sure of all of the historical stuff. My thing is, I'm just trying to take a a practical approach to this stuff as it's being used *right now*, regardless of origin (at least in cases where the origin isn't relevant, which is more often than we might think). Where the modality *is* the tonality, I like to look at it that way; where what you really have is an overarching major or minor tonality going on, I like to look at it from that perspective. In some ways, we may be coming at much the same stuff, from a different angle.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Another way to look at modes (and the way I prefer to teach them) is all of them in relation to the same major scale:

Lydian - 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 8
Major - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Dorian - 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8
Aolean - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8
Phrygian - 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8
Locrian - 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 8

This is a great way to learn to construct the modes, without getting into the confusion caused by learning them the other way...

This is absolutely the way I like to explain them to people too. You can really hear the flavor of each mode better this way. (But you wanna get the mixolydian in there, right?) This approach allows you to get across the concept that when you specify a different set of intervals from a given starting point, you specify a different harmonic atmosphere. When you teach the modes as spinoffs from the degrees of the major scale, the first thing people tend to say IME is, these are all the same notes, so what's the difference? (Which is a good question, and hard to answer when the modes are taught that way IMO.)