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Which Rock Star Will Historians Remember?

Could this be because they're not old enough to have found their "own stuff" yet though?...

I know that my musical tastes were very much influenced by my father at a young age in the late 50's, early 60's....

All changed when I heard The Stones for the first time on pirate radio.....:)

certainly possible - likely more so for my daughter than son. he is super focused on music, and generally prefers to play jethro tull on his turntable, every day. he also frequently demands dissonant prog while riding in the car - albeit not in those words. he is 5, so its usually, play number 5 on the one we heard yesterday! one must be careful, or one listens to the same magma track over and over and over

i have to say though, my fathers love of 50s/early 60's jazz never left me, i just augmented it
 
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Interesting article, and raises a lot of pertinent questions. I disagree with some of his claims about rock having run its course and being a dead end. It originated as the music of youth, yes, built around simple three-chord blues progressions. But musical genres evolve, both stylistically and in their social setting. Modern jazz is a very different beast in form and audience from what was being played in New Orleans in the 1920s.

The problem I have with the author's vote for Chuck Berry as the face of rock 300 years from now is that Berry wasn't prolific enough. For 99% of people he's only known for the one song. I think that what happens with the passage of time is a telescoping effect, where a great body of work gets whittled down and whittled down in the public awareness until any given artist is only really known for just one or two pieces that "stand in" for the whole repertoire, which only specialists really explore. College teachers only have twenty minutes out of one class session in the survey course to talk about that genre so they pick the one or two iconic works to exemplify the rest.

This is not just music; how many Leonardo da Vinci paintings can the average person on the street name? Mona Lisa and... maybe the Last Supper... what else? People KNOW there's a lot more, and the fact that a lot more exists allows scholars to build their careers on studying the artist and writing dissertations about them, but most people don't know WHAT exactly the "lot more" actually consists of.

Given that telescoping effect, an artist that only has one major work to start with very quickly gets sandwiched in with a batch of other artists in the same boat, and then they become a nameless and generic batch of forgotten individuals. Chuck Berry is too easy to lump in with Little Richard and Jerry Lee Lewis and Buddy Holly as "fifties rock and rollers" to become the textbook example of what late-20th century popular music was all about. Also, he lacks longevity (even though he kept playing for a long time). Fifties rock went moribund fast and can easily be fitted into the bigger narrative as the gateway to the explosion of 60s, 70s, 80s rock. Guys like Chuck Berry then become mere forerunners to the "real" story.

So I would argue that, 300 years from now, the "face of rock" people learn about will be someone who was prolific in their output and who had longevity in their career so that they can be used to exemplify as much of the history of the genre as possible in a 20-minute segment of a class. That would put the Beatles back in the running; they didn't have such great longevity as a group, but were certainly prolific, and just about everything in rock that happened after can be traced back to something they did. You also have built-in human interest in things like the dispute over Yoko's role and the later murder of Lennon. That kind of thing is teaching gold.

But I think the Stones would probably be the ones to really emerge as the long-term icons of rock. The article makes the argument pretty strongly, and then dismisses it rather weakly to try to argue for Chuck Berry. They have the prolific output of the Beatles, but also the longevity the Beatles didn't have, and they better exemplify the transgressive quality of early rock than the Beatles do.
Great post. Totally agree.

It probably would have served the author well to consider this from the academic standpoint of how subjects are taught as you have. The idea that all of rock and roll will be boiled down to one icon actually doesn't sit well with me, nor do I think it will happen due to human nature. We humans are detail freaks, especially in academia. Rock and roll is too complex and culturally important to distill into one face. I think as the era is studied by historians, it would be as any subject is studied, ranging from gen ed survey to dissertation. My guess is that historians will break rock and roll into much finer bits than they are even now, genres, eras, regions, etc, as opposed to trying to limit the entire subject to a single figure. One single representative for an entire subject is totally counter to the way historians earn their bread and butter, wouldn't you say?

As to popularity during the era dictating the place the figure holds in the historical canon, I can see certain unexpected personalities rising to the top. After all, there are 300 years of history yet to be written before our fictitious professor chooses her examples for class. In that intervening time, there will undoubtedly be a renaissance or two where rock and roll is rediscovered and changed to either fit the current culture, or as a result of technology. I think that whomever is rediscovered to inform those reinterpretations, will hold a strong place in the future version of history. Mozart, for instance, not exactly popular at the time of his existence, Van Gogh, another. Due to the passage of time and discovery, both are now top of the list when the subjects of classical music or painting are discussed. Who knows, in 300 years, Richard Hell may be seen as the progenitor genius that he is.

If I were a history prof 300 years from now, I would make my first presentation selections based on how my class might react to it. I would want their attention. I would want to find a sound and visual that would shock and amaze them instantly. Sitting here, I can not think of a better example than Little Richard. The first sounds my class would hear would be "A-wop-bom-a-loo-mop-a-lomp-bom-bom!". Combined with the amazing visual of Little Richard on the "holodeck" doing what only he could do so well, I have no doubt the class would be left slack jawed.

I would then run some Sex Pistols footage, before back tracking to the Beatles to talk about the idea of "the band" and the shift from dance music to songwriting as an art form.

So, the scary thing about all this is television. Not the band, Television, but the object, television, which was the main source of promulgation and infection of this rock and roll virus. Every story about how rock and roll went from underground to mainstream begins with "Ed Sullivan..." The author of the essay mentions rock and roll being influential on culture but not as influential as TV. This being the case, future historians may conflate the two and may come to believe that rock and roll transmitted through the medium of broadcast was the most important rock and roll to the culture. Given this, the band or musician with the most air time would be the most important. Here's the scary part, that band would be The Monkees. A close second, The Partridge Family. Yikes!
 
Read a little of the history of classical music to get a perspective on this. Over about 500 years, why do we have music around by Hildegard of Bingen, for instance? Why do musicians almost never perform Louis Spohr, a contemporary of Beethoven and Mendelsohn who was much more successful in his own time? Speaking of Mendelsohn, he's one of the handful of 19th century musicians credited with rediscovering the then-forgotten JS Bach, who was known in his own life much more as a super-talented organist than as a composer. Music gets lost, forgotten, physically hidden. Rock and roll is vulnerable because it's usually not learned or performed as written music. Written music is, pardon my Francais, a shaging miracle, the ultimate software--any 21st century musician no matter what language they speak can read what was written by a German or an Italian in the 16th, 17th, or 18th century with no trouble once they know the code. FWIW I am not a fluent reader. Let's hope that some "serious" composer writes pieces directly stolen from rock songs the same way that American folk idioms (Ellington, Copland, Dvorak) or Gypsy music (Liszt, Brahms, Bartok) have been written down in code and preserved!
 
None. Even the great composers get a passing mention in history classes these days. 300 years from now the icons of rock history will be lumped in with centuries of musicians who were crude enough to band away on strings to make music. We will be seen as not much more than unsophisticated monkeys. Hendrix played for a teenager 300 years from now will be "awful noise" and they will think it is a joke that people spent money and gathered by the thousands to hear him play. Elvis will be a goof in a funny suit making similar noises even though to our ears they are world's apart. That is, even if they are mentioned at all. The entirety of 80s music will be scoffed at and they will wonder why all the men dressed is drag....and not pretty drag.

History matters less and less each generation as evidenced by the fact that we repeat it so much.

Virtually none of my childrens' generation (they are 4 and 6) will have ever heard the name Rolling Stones. They won't know Aerosmith, the Beatles, The Who, Crosby Stills and Nash, Springsteen, Bon Jovi, or even Michael Jackson. They have too many other media figures to fill their brains with. Seriously, other than the occasional nostalgic commercial or movie hit, many of the artists even of the 90s will not get another mention in history.

Sure, there are some current young weirdos who somehow think Cobain was a "visionary", and maybe Madonna will (sadly) make one more album. But unless they watch an "old" Zoolander movie they may never even see an image of David Bowie. Why would they?

Rock Stars will be but a blip on the radar screen of history.... if that. In fact, by 300 years from now, American slavery, flight, and cars will be just about the only aspects of history up until the year 2000 even discussed much. What do you think children of their generation will even learn, if anything, about WW1, WW2, Vietnam, Korea or even the Civil War (other than slavery of course). They will watch a video on Desert Storm and mention Hitler and that will be about it. Other than that, American "atrocities" is what they will focus on.

Nah, "history" is an agenda these days. If it isn't in the agenda it won't survive 300 more years, other than in museums, which they mostly won't go to unless forced.

The reason so little interest is paid to music from 300 years ago is reading about it and looking at line drawings while listening to reproductions of the actuall sounds is not nearly as interesting as seeing and hearing actual live motion recordings of Grand Funk Railroad captured live in Atlanta, or Wet Willie recorded live at a new years eve party.

My twenty something nephew is typical of that generation, a college kid and aspiring electronc dance DJ in the vein of Bass Nectar. Every time i see him he's asking me about bands from my youth he's discovered on You Tube and is very interested in any personal knowledge i may have on them. If it's a band i've seen live he wants a blow by blow first hand account and is very interested in anything i might be able to add to the information he's already gleened from the usual sources.

While i agree with much of your belief that history is an agenda, when has it ever not been? The only people who take a cynical view of history are those on the losing end of their generation's culture wars because history is always shaped by the winners of whatever wars are the defining monents of that era, be it actual combat or the never ending desire of special interest groups to see a utopia built to conform to their hopes and dreams. In the past those losers struck out into unexplored territory looking for a place to build their ideal society unmolested by detractors. These days, at least in America, they simply become yet another butt hurt group of hyphenated Americans who know their homeland is done for because their idea of right living failed to capture the imagination of a majority of their fellows. We already have conflicting ideas about the motives of our founders and the root cause of the civil war, and opinions of both events vary wildly depending on the personal agenda of whomever is giving their opinion.

History has never and will never be a balanced factual account if events, it will forever be colored by the opinions of winners.

That said, my vote would go for the stones. While i'm no serious fan, it is undeniable they peaked at the precise moment as the thing we call rock and roll also peaked, and have remained productive throughout the slow spiral to the bottom that every cultural phenomenon eventually takes. Simply stated, more people know the Rolling Stones and associate them with the sound and attitude that embodies rock and roll than any other band or individual under that umbrella.
 
That said, my vote would go for the stones. While i'm no serious fan, it is undeniable they peaked at the precise moment as the thing we call rock and roll also peaked, and have remained productive throughout the slow spiral to the bottom that every cultural phenomenon eventually takes. Simply stated, more people know the Rolling Stones and associate them with the sound and attitude that embodies rock and roll than any other band or individual under that umbrella.



I don't think its the stones - based on this more people know these acts

250 million or more records

  • 120px-The_Fabs.jpg

    The Beatles


  • 93px-Elvis_Presley_promoting_Jailhouse_Rock.jpg

    Elvis Presley


  • 67px-Michael_Jackson_in_1988.jpg

    Michael Jackson


  • 95px-Madonna_%C3%A0_Nice_30_2.jpg

    Madonna


  • 96px-Elton_John_2011_Shankbone_2.jpg

    Elton John


  • 120px-LedZeppelinmontage.jpg

    Led Zeppelin


  • 120px-Pinkfloyd.png

    Pink Floyd
 
The reason so little interest is paid to music from 300 years ago is reading about it and looking at line drawings while listening to reproductions of the actuall sounds is not nearly as interesting as seeing and hearing actual live motion recordings of Grand Funk Railroad captured live in Atlanta, or Wet Willie recorded live at a new years eve party.

My twenty something nephew is typical of that generation, a college kid and aspiring electronc dance DJ in the vein of Bass Nectar. Every time i see him he's asking me about bands from my youth he's discovered on You Tube and is very interested in any personal knowledge i may have on them. If it's a band i've seen live he wants a blow by blow first hand account and is very interested in anything i might be able to add to the information he's already gleened from the usual sources.

While i agree with much of your belief that history is an agenda, when has it ever not been? The only people who take a cynical view of history are those on the losing end of their generation's culture wars because history is always shaped by the winners of whatever wars are the defining monents of that era, be it actual combat or the never ending desire of special interest groups to see a utopia built to conform to their hopes and dreams. In the past those losers struck out into unexplored territory looking for a place to build their ideal society unmolested by detractors. These days, at least in America, they simply become yet another butt hurt group of hyphenated Americans who know their homeland is done for because their idea of right living failed to capture the imagination of a majority of their fellows. We already have conflicting ideas about the motives of our founders and the root cause of the civil war, and opinions of both events vary wildly depending on the personal agenda of whomever is giving their opinion.

History has never and will never be a balanced factual account if events, it will forever be colored by the opinions of winners.

That said, my vote would go for the stones. While i'm no serious fan, it is undeniable they peaked at the precise moment as the thing we call rock and roll also peaked, and have remained productive throughout the slow spiral to the bottom that every cultural phenomenon eventually takes. Simply stated, more people know the Rolling Stones and associate them with the sound and attitude that embodies rock and roll than any other band or individual under that umbrella.

I can't argue with anything you said.

That noted, so 300 years from now you see teenagers YouTubing (or whatever the technology of the day) the Rolling Stones? I don't.
 
Interesting read in NYT.

300 years from now, who will be the face of 20th century rock and roll?

Who gets your vote? Author is leaning toward Chuck Berry or Dylan... or maybe the Sex Pistols.

Discuss.

Link: Invalid Link Removed


When all is written the common theme will not be music but how well their business plan worked for the era they came from.

Beatles for sure!

Zappa, depending on how that soap opera ends.
 
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You seem awfully focused on slavery and American atrocities.

It would seem that way. However, it was actually my attempt at lamenting the fact that with all of the amazing and wonderful things this country has done and the (literally) hundreds of millions of lives we have saved, it is historians and educators who seem hell bent on continuing to pick at the scabs of our few mistakes. Never mind that virtually every single civilization on Earth has both been enslaved and held slaves in captivity at some point.

Sure, it was bad, wrong, stupid, etc. But history will reflect, unfortunately, that slavery is about the only thing we did in our first few hundred years as a nation. We might get a little credit for flight and cars. But that's about it. The rest of what they will be taught (and what they are currently taught according to several college kids from my neighborhood) is that we are, and have been, the worst thing to happen to the planet in its entire history. I find quite the opposite. And that is not just patriotism. Anyone looking at a list of strides made in technology, medicine, peace, prosperity and civilization would have to put the U.S. at the top of the list of places of origin.

I went back and forth as to whether or not to even post this as I assume it could kick open the wrong doors and derail the thread. Edit if need be. Thanks.
 
It would seem that way. However, it was actually my attempt at lamenting the fact that with all of the amazing and wonderful things this country has done and the (literally) hundreds of millions of lives we have saved, it is historians and educators who seem hell bent on continuing to pick at the scabs of our few mistakes. Never mind that virtually every single civilization on Earth has both been enslaved and held slaves in captivity at some point.

Sure, it was bad, wrong, stupid, etc. But history will reflect, unfortunately, that slavery is about the only thing we did in our first few hundred years as a nation. We might get a little credit for flight and cars. But that's about it. The rest of what they will be taught (and what they are currently taught according to several college kids from my neighborhood) is that we are, and have been, the worst thing to happen to the planet in its entire history. I find quite the opposite. And that is not just patriotism. Anyone looking at a list of strides made in technology, medicine, peace, prosperity and civilization would have to put the U.S. at the top of the list of places of origin.

I went back and forth as to whether or not to even post this as I assume it could kick open the wrong doors and derail the thread. Edit if need be. Thanks.

ugh - so much wrong here. ignored.