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Which to upgrade?

sricks3

sricks3

Dec 6, 2007
195
22
38
Augusta, GA
#1
Hi there,

I have a simple project studio in my home, and I generally like the way my stuff sounds, but I'm looking to upgrade a bit.

As it stands right now, my DAW consists of a Line 6 UX8 going into my Sonar 8 system. I have an ADK A-51 Type V, a small diaphragm ADK (SC-1, sounds right?), and an SM57. I typically just use the pre-amps on the UX8 but will occasionally run through my ART Tube MP Studio for a little extra warmth/boost.

I'm trying to determine whether to upgrade my mic collection (to improve the sound source itself) or buy one nice pre-amp/channel strip (to get the most out of the mics and instruments I have). Here's my current thought process:

Upgrading the mic collection:
  • Improves the sound at the source.
  • I'd buy a mic(s) that would bring variety to my current collection.
  • I'd still be using UX8 or Tube MP pres.

Upgrading the pre-amps:
  • Allows my to use my current source signal to its fullest potential.
  • Could also be used to improve DI signals (bass, guitar, etc).
  • Would allow nicer mics to sound better when I do eventuall upgrade my mic collection.

I can work anywhere up to $2000ish, but I'd obviously like to keep it as cheap as possible. What do y'all think?
 
#2
sricks3 said:
Hi there,

I have a simple project studio in my home, and I generally like the way my stuff sounds, but I'm looking to upgrade a bit.

As it stands right now, my DAW consists of a Line 6 UX8 going into my Sonar 8 system. I have an ADK A-51 Type V, a small diaphragm ADK (SC-1, sounds right?), and an SM57. I typically just use the pre-amps on the UX8 but will occasionally run through my ART Tube MP Studio for a little extra warmth/boost.

I'm trying to determine whether to upgrade my mic collection (to improve the sound source itself) or buy one nice pre-amp/channel strip (to get the most out of the mics and instruments I have). Here's my current thought process:

Upgrading the mic collection:
  • Improves the sound at the source.
  • I'd buy a mic(s) that would bring variety to my current collection.
  • I'd still be using UX8 or Tube MP pres.

Upgrading the pre-amps:
  • Allows my to use my current source signal to its fullest potential.
  • Could also be used to improve DI signals (bass, guitar, etc).
  • Would allow nicer mics to sound better when I do eventuall upgrade my mic collection.

I can work anywhere up to $2000ish, but I'd obviously like to keep it as cheap as possible. What do y'all think?
Click to expand...

Have you tried to determine which part you're least satisfied with? Also, do you usually use mic or DI or combination of both? Are you running a mac or a pc? Do you need midi?

If I had your gear and two grand to spare, the first thing I'd change is the interface as it's sort of the bottom line of things. Having a nice chain going trough less than stellar conversion is sort of wasting potential.

If you use a lot of DI, that would be the second priority, as I think the modest 57 combined with a good DI line is pretty nice for most situations, but experimenting with other mics is always fun. Always buy used mics.

I'd probably do this:
1. RME fireface 800 for about a grand. This would give you one of the best conversions for pc and mac in the home user category. Apogee would be great too, but they're mac only and somewhat expensive as the rosetta is close to two grand and smaller units lack channels and other options. RME has good, clear pres. They're nothing stellar, but they work pretty well as an uncolouring pre for instruments and they're definately on a whole new level compared to art mp or line6.
2. Used pre/DI of good quality, something like avalon u5 or REDDI. That would be 400ish.
3. Maybe a used re20 mic... Around 250-300.

That way you'd have (in my opinion) one of the best home user interfaces, a truly nice preamp for DI and one of the greatest bass cabinet mics for less than two grand. And if you buy the pres and mics used, you can always buy say two differend pres and two differend mics and see which one you prefer, sell the less appealing ones and lose no money.
 
#3
I'm using a PC. Currently running Vista Ultimate (got a free copy from my dad's old company). I'm actually a linux guy, but I like Sonar so much that I'm sticking to Vista for now. Plus my Line 6 doesn't have linux drivers yet.

Anyway, I honestly hadn't even thought much about the interface itself. My only concern about switching the interface would be that I use the Line 6 VST software a lot, and it requires the UX8 (or other Line 6 interface) to be plugged in.

Also, I record more than just bass. From my limited experience, the re20 is usually recommended as a great bass cab/kick/broadcast mic. Although I'm sure it could be used for other purposes as well. I guess I'm just looking for a way to improve my setup that will provide benefit for bass, guitar, strings, vocals, everything. I'm not too worried about being able to mic a drumset right now because I usually borrow my friend's drum mics for that purpose. Plus, I do a lot of folky stuff, so a drumset isn't even present all the time.

I'll definitely consider the interface upgrade. Thanks for your input.

Anyone else with any other ideas? I like to keep my options open.
 
#5
No reason you can only do one of those with even half that budget, there is a lot of great equipment you can pickup used for relatively cheap. Presonus makes some killer pre's the mp20 comes to mind and you can pick those up for around $300 used. In the studio I record at I use that over the avalon and chandler they have.

As far as mic's go a few moderately priced mic's that will server you very well:

For guitars:
Sennheiser 441 or E609 are two of my favorite mics, can't go wrong with a 57.

I've been pretty impressed with the studio projects C1 for guitars and vocals, but there are better vocal mic's in the same price range. I really like the CAD M9, and you can't go wrong with an SM7.

I actually use these for toms, they are 57 clones (which I actually like better than a real 57, a bit darker sounding) that run $30/pop. I have 6 of them and use them all the time.
http://www.speakerrepair.com/mm5/me...Product_Code=37-206&Category_Code=microphones

You don't have to spend a lot of money to get a pretty solid setup.
 
#7
Ok that changes everything! In that case I'd change the mic for a new LDC. Maybe a multi pattern one to give you even more versatility. AT 4050 perhaps? Very natural and versatile. Or 4047 for single pattern. I'm a big fan of the 47 myself. If on a budget, the kel hm7-u is hard to beat.

And I would also recommend building a reflection filter of somekind if you're in an untreated room. It will help you get the most out of the ldc's and make post processing a lot easier. One can be built for about 30-40 dollars. That said, spending some of that budget on room treatment will go a long way.

For an allround pre, golden age pre73 is one of the best buys I've heard. About 300 for a copy of the classic neve circuit. Sort of warm and vintage sounding, colourful pre which is really nice if you have good clean pres on an interface and really doesn't sound cheap at all. It also makes a nice bass pre and has enough gain to run even the lowest output dynamics. Next step price-wise would probably be the UA 610 for me, which is also a great bass pre.

I'd still look into the interface stuff first though..
 
#8
First step, monitors and room treatment. If you have any construction experience (like, 9th grade shop class), then DIY broadband panels and bass traps are dirt cheap and will make the money you sink into other gear go a LOT further. Further, top-notch pres, quality mics, and pristine ADCs and DACs won't do much if you can't hear them accurately. I'd spend money on treatment before monitors, though. Get that room sounding super-even and get the bass under control, then flood it with tasty sound after.

Next step after that is a channel or two of really good preamp. Stuff like the Golden Age Pre-73, FMR RNP, and the Black Lion Auteur are all great bang-for-the-buck pres of varying flavours. If you want to step it up, Great River always gets my nod for "first heavy-hitter pre," but then again, it does magical things to my voice when paired with an SM-7B. Grace Design M101 and True Systems P-Solo are both superb at $500 per channel, if you're looking for clean, clear and transparent, but you've already got workable clean pres on your interface

If you still have money left after treating your room, filling it with monitors of doom and a solid gold signal chain, THEN you start expanding your mic collection. In your situation, I'd start with a pair of workhorse SDCs (Geffel M300, Shure SM-81, AT-4041). That'll cover acoustic instruments, light perc, room mics, even electric instruments and vox in a pinch. Follow that up with a serious LDC (Soundelux U195, AKG C414, AT-4050 or 4047) for when you want a smoother character and less transient response. Then think about a broadcast dynamic (Shure SM-7B, EV RE-20) to supplement when your 57 seems to lack body on certain sources. Switch the order around depending on what you find is lacking the most in your collection.

That being said, your current mic locker will probably get you a pretty long way when you back them up with some juicy preamp. I've never used 'em, but ADKs get pretty good reviews, especially considering the price, and a 57 can cover everything except drum overheads (even then, it'll do those in a pinch). Upgrade your mics before you get new AD/DA, but don't be in too much of a rush.

Anything after that, get thee to Invalid Link Removed
 
#9
I guess I should have mentioned that I use KRK Rockit 5 monitors (the old boxy ones). I have a walk-in closet that I use for almost anything I mic. The small size of the room along with the clothes hanging on either side seems to take care of any annoying acoustics in that regard. My bedroom where I do my mixing also sounds pretty nice with just the furniture and equipment that's in it. I probably will put up a couple of DIY bass traps though, been thinking about that for a while.

Thanks to everyone for the recommendations; this is great!
 
#10
I very much agree with Nick's post above.

I disagree with the suggestion of upgrading the A/D specifically, the quality of the A/D is pretty far down the chain in how much it effects recordings, it doesn't have as much impact on recording as the pre or mic you use. A good A/D will certainly add a bit of clarity and depth to a recording but it rarely adds magic, which a pre and a mic certainly can do!

And as Nick suggests, a lot of workhorse mics are just waiting to have their potential unlocked with a nice pre, a 57 becomes a real great bargain mic through a nice pre, chances are you have never heard how it is 'meant' to sound, apart from hidden on countless hit records.

It really works down in importance from source, starting with the player, of course, and then where ou are recording the sound s/he makes-

-if the room is great but the player is bad, major trouble, no gear can save him!
-if the room sounds bad, NOTHING recorded in it will be that great, or at its full potential, even if the player rocks (apart from very close mic'd stuff!)
-If the room and player are good but everything else is rubbish, you still might get an ok demo with skill
-If everythings great up to and including the mic, then you are getting somewhere
-if everything is great up to the pre then you are really cooking!

etc etc, looking back that didn't scan as well as I thought it would :) but hopefully it helps a bit, improving any stage is only worth it if the steps up until that part of the stage have already been addressed.

Which suggests a mic upgrade, but you already have a couple of cool mics, great mics don't have to cost a lot of money, really, they are one of the only areas of audio you get very good for very cheap! of course there is a huge amount of magic to be had with a u47 of akg c12 or any other super high end mic but it is far more of a flexible decision compared to, say, pre's or amps which are often a case of 'you get what you pay for'.

so I guess the result of my ramblings is something thats already been suggested, anyway! doh. I'd opt for a great pre, get to know it, it will make any mic you get sound better. Great pre's are one of the BIG upgrades you can make to a home (or any) setup, they are SO important.

$2000 is a great budget! I'd only spend all of that on one bit of gear, though, if I was either loaded (not the case :) ) or expecting it to help me with my work, ie it will pay for itself at some point! If you are really keen to make recording a big part of your life I'd buy as good as possible, as it will last you pretty much forever with a bit of maintenance. But if for now its only something you are interested in I'd go for one of the many bargains suggested!
 
#11
2 grand! Now that is a budget we can have some fun with! With that we can get you killer front end from source to disk. On the used market:

Great River ME-1NV mic pre. Amazing mic pre with very good DI in in
$850

Apogee Rosetta AD 48 an older but still very very good sounding analog to digital converter (you would run the mic pre into that and the digital out into your interface
$450

Shure KSM32. Fantastic sounding condenser mic. With that and your SM57 you will be in amazing shape.
$300

That is $1600 Total. Leaves you $400 for other toys.
 

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