Why are amps still dinosaurs?

[seamonkey]

I've been low-key searching for a 'forever' bass amp and I'll be danged if I can't find at least a couple things about most every head that I don't like. Anything from EQ points, to general tone, to lack of features, build quality, price, etc... That got me thinking. If I were to design/build my own amp from the ground up (or have someone else do it), how would I spec it out and what options would I include in it? Shortly after that, I got to wondering why we actually need 'hard wired' amps anymore in the first place.

Why can't manufacturers put in a digital software EQ section where we can set eq points, change the type (shelf, paramatric, 'Q' of the parametric, etc), add/remove high pass filters, even dynamic EQ would be easily possible (EQ that changes based on how hard you play), noise gate, compressor, etc. Then, once you've gotten up a sound you like for whatever gig, you can save it to a handful of storage slots for easy recall later.

Seems that would be super easy to put in a solid state amp for sure, but why hasn't anybody done it? It would open up a whole world full of additional tone options and dramatically increase the versatility of the amp! Plus, that component could be fairly copy+paste throughout several models, so perhaps they could either lower the pricing of the amp or reinvest that money back into the power amp section....?

How far away are you from just doing your own?
Put a mini PC, Mac, iPad in head case.
Add some midi knobs - the iPad itself - or if you go PC even a Ardino or smartphone like front panel
And off the shelf VST software plugins

Kushview elements for loading VSTs and presets
Then a midi control surface like a Icon iControls or one of the many alternatives.

If it's worthy, then there will be some commercial versions coming.

Most FOH now have a PC sitting next to them for running plugins. You could put your software and licenses on a thumb drive and let FOH run the software.

Some of the ideas you mention like dynamic EQ are possible now with software plugins such as Izotope, or Sonible. Software versions may happen long before hardware (or embedded ) version are created. Software is far outpacing hardware these days.

 

[seamonkey]

The sad reality is there will only be you and one other person at the gig who will even notice. Great timing and a good smile go a whole lot farther at the gig than fancy equipment....

I use the 80/20 % rule
If figure I better at bass than 80% of the crowd listening, so I might as well try to push the last 20% with the awe of my live sound.

 

[BassNugget]

Times have changed. NASA doesn't have the space shuttle anymore so what they did in the past doesn't matter much as what scientist are on doing on the ISS.

One of my PCs has ECC memory and RAID on the disk arrays. But it's not going into space. And I admit that it's way overkill for the MTBF on earth or low earth orbit.

I get it. The point of my post wasn't about memory technology. The point of my post was simply MY opinion that I like things in two "boxes". I used the old shuttle as an example.

I have had multiple times (hundreds really) over the years where defaulting to a simpler thing was necessary. One example would be optics on the M4 rifle. I have had red dots and other optics go multiple times for a variety of reasons, but I still have iron sights built into the rifle. The red dot is a separate "box" on the rifle. I can remove and replace it, and if it malfunctions, it does not stop the rifle from working. The iron sights still work if the optics do not. The rifle still works without the optics.

In a field environment, the simpler, well made technologies work. They aren't always the BEST. I definitely prefer the GPS/Satellite navigation system to my map and lensatic compass. It is more accurate and faster. However, when you hit a large bump in the Humvee and the thing goes down, or it refuses to link up, it's map time. It would be nice to have multiple back ups, but we usually don't due to cost.

Anyway, it's just my opinion, and no one has to agree or care for it.

 

[Jack Deth]

it's just my opinion

I have to agree with you, in the field mechanical (simplistic) backups are a must.

 

[BoogieZK]

I've been low-key searching for a 'forever' bass amp and I'll be danged if I can't find at least a couple things about most every head that I don't like. Anything from EQ points, to general tone, to lack of features, build quality, price, etc... That got me thinking. If I were to design/build my own amp from the ground up (or have someone else do it), how would I spec it out and what options would I include in it? Shortly after that, I got to wondering why we actually need 'hard wired' amps anymore in the first place.

Why can't manufacturers put in a digital software EQ section where we can set eq points, change the type (shelf, paramatric, 'Q' of the parametric, etc), add/remove high pass filters, even dynamic EQ would be easily possible (EQ that changes based on how hard you play), noise gate, compressor, etc. Then, once you've gotten up a sound you like for whatever gig, you can save it to a handful of storage slots for easy recall later.

Seems that would be super easy to put in a solid state amp for sure, but why hasn't anybody done it? It would open up a whole world full of additional tone options and dramatically increase the versatility of the amp! Plus, that component could be fairly copy+paste throughout several models, so perhaps they could either lower the pricing of the amp or reinvest that money back into the power amp section....?

Because musicians are dinosaurs.... That is sad but true at least in the non-professional world.

How many times have you heard that?
"Volume and Tone, that is only what i need!
Pbass are the best basses because it's simple!
Active EQ? Never!
Active Basses? Never!
I prefer tube tones!
I always run my amp flat!
I prefer Ampeg SVTs heads because it's simple!
Wow! You have too many knobs on your bass!
Wow! You have too many knobs on your amp!
Wow! I'll never use digital gear because it sounds so cold!
....
"

Don't ask why amps are not more flexible or complete! Because people don't want to even pay interest to that.
Again at least in the non-professional world.

 

[eric_B]

I would prefer a 'normal' amp (or combo) and use something like a Zoom B3(n) for sound tweaks - in fact, that is my setup
Probably the amp will last longer and you can replace the Zoom if necessary - although my B3 is still working fine.

 

[bnt]

I’m with others here (I think) in that if I required that level of sonic sculpting, I wouldn’t necessarily want it in the amp itself. I have a 2018 iPad and an audio interface that works well with it (Mackie Producer 2*2), and the free GarageBand package has some pretty powerful bass amp emulation where I can save settings as presets.

I also use the AUM system which is basically a mixer/router for audio & MIDI, which is good for Rick-O-Sound style split processing of pickup signals. e.g. High-pass filter on the bridge pickup before routing to a phaser plugin, amp sim with low pass and compression on the neck pickup, save as a preset.

 

[Joeynone]

You should check out the Bergantino B Amp. It has digital eq and shelf. Plus memory function. It’s an amazing unit!

 

[swink]

Keep in mind what can happen if you want to improve a dinosaur.

The real answer to the "chicken or the egg question" is T-Rex.

 

[swink]

I get it. The point of my post wasn't about memory technology. The point of my post was simply MY opinion that I like things in two "boxes". I used the old shuttle as an example.

I have had multiple times (hundreds really) over the years where defaulting to a simpler thing was necessary. One example would be optics on the M4 rifle. I have had red dots and other optics go multiple times for a variety of reasons, but I still have iron sights built into the rifle. The red dot is a separate "box" on the rifle. I can remove and replace it, and if it malfunctions, it does not stop the rifle from working. The iron sights still work if the optics do not. The rifle still works without the optics.

In a field environment, the simpler, well made technologies work. They aren't always the BEST. I definitely prefer the GPS/Satellite navigation system to my map and lensatic compass. It is more accurate and faster. However, when you hit a large bump in the Humvee and the thing goes down, or it refuses to link up, it's map time. It would be nice to have multiple back ups, but we usually don't due to cost.

Anyway, it's just my opinion, and no one has to agree or care for it.

Been there, done that... got the T-shirt

 

[GManfromOz]

kcducttaper - I too have never found an amp head that gave me everything I wanted. However, an extra pedal or two is usually a good way to make up for what for what you are missing/requiring. For me, I use the Mesa D800. Now, I stopped thinking about the head I use at the show and just focus on playing. I still want more tone controls on the head, but I refuse to spend more money on the D800+. That's OK with me.

To answer your question, Markbass made "modules" that you could add to an amp power block. You could change EQ controls, gain controls, and so on. It never caught on and I never saw one in the wild. Perhaps you should stop looking at a "forever" amp head and just focus on what makes you happy now. You can always trade/sell it later on in the future. Tone preferences change!

Agreed, I stopped gassing when I worked out my D800. My playing has enough shortcomings for me to blame anything on the amp.

 

[GManfromOz]

…I’d get stuck in the car. Shoulders too wide, quads too big.

Also, I’m like all torso, so my head would be blocking the air intake.

I mean, I’d still beat Mazepin, but I’d be very uncomfortable doing it.

I really hoped that Haas would kick on but it's really just making up the numbers right now. Let's see what happens when the 2022 cars get on track, Haas did say the stopped development for this year didn't they?

 

[Goat of Ball St]

I do want to note that software development is extremely expensive much like any fabrication and engineering

 

[yodedude2]

I use the 80/20 % rule
If figure I better at bass than 80% of the crowd listening, so I might as well try to push the last 20% with the awe of my live sound.

for me it's the 20/80 rule

 

[lfmn16]

Manufacturers make what people want to buy. If there was a market for what you wanted, manufacturers would make it, it’s really just that simple.

 

[Admiral Akbar]

Maybe you should take a look at the synthesizer market, which makes bass players look like troglodytes.

Back in the 1980's digital (Roland D-50, Korg M-1) became all the rage and they took the knobs and sliders off the keyboards because well you just programmed in what you needed to do right?

Well then the knobs started to make comeback, albeit on digital keyboards.

Then (late 1990's) physical modeling of analog became a big deal, big big deal and became a big part of the market.

Well at the high end of the market people started coming out with ACTUAL ANALOG synthesizers and those were successful.

Now there is quite a business in real analogs, to the point where the guy from Sequential Circuits (Prophet 5) bought the rights to his company name back, and now he has teamed up with the Oberheim guy and that company (the new Sequential) has a wide variety of mostly analog products.

The thing is the old school guys want to go back to that, and the new guys with new styles of music figured out the analog stuff not only sounded good, it allowed a greater interaction with the gear in real time.

Given the vast majority of bass players are using tones that have been around for 25 - 65 years, and the fact that all the styles of playing have evolved to a standard set of styles, there is no big market or desire to create a bazillion ways of doing things when the existing interfaces and amp designs work just fine.

The departure from this of course is Class D, but that's more a weight and power convenience factor.

The existing amp companies could have put really complex programmable front ends on these products and gave players the ability to create a million and one sounds, but the nature of bass does not really require that.

As far as the PA systems with their "sophisticated digital processing" go, well those systems are just replicating what the analog systems before them did. Obviously with greater control and precision but you are mixing a band in a venue which is WAY more complex than just playing bass on stage.

A modern Porsche 911 is in most ways (well besides the weight) far superior to an old school air cooled 911 but guess what people want? That old school air cooled 911 because it rewards the drivers in ways a modern, do it all with computers 911 cannot.

That's why people will pay $500,000 for a 2.7 RS from 1973 because what it brings to the party the modern car and try and replicate but frankly it does not.

Too much gingerbread for when all you want to do is drive an engaging sports car on a nice twisty road.

Analogeezer

Well said sir, Å I LOVE my Sequential (Dave Smith) Prophet 6!

 

[g-dude]

Yes but Mazepin would beat you with Russian petro dollars LOL.

Man what a pity how low Haas F1 has sunk, they came out of the box strong the first two seasons for a brand new team but seemed to have gone backwards.

I read an interesting interview of Haas at the beginning where they asked him why he was putting all that money into F1. He said 80%+ of the CNC machine tools he sold were sold around the world, the US was not his main market. So being in F1 gave him visibility to the world market and at first at least it was worth the money to him to promote his company that way.

Sadly they wound up being the modern version of Minardi, but without the charm of being the perennial backmarkers.

WhoopS! Wrong forum for talking about F1!

Analogeezer

I really hoped that Haas would kick on but it's really just making up the numbers right now. Let's see what happens when the 2022 cars get on track, Haas did say the stopped development for this year didn't they?

They did.

That being said, they need to pretend like they are the bassist and Mazepin is the drummer - and fire the drummer.

 

[retslock]

I know a guy who bought a PA system like you describe. It did everything you could imagine but it was a total nightmare on a live gig. Where analog lets you grab a knob and turn it to get an instant result, he had to tap tap tap to get to the screen he needed then tap again to designate the function sometimes tapping past where he needed to be then going back a step or two and in the meantime the band is looking daggers at him for not getting his act together.
In the studio fiddle all you want. On stage you don’t need to complicate it. Simple is better. Once I get a feel for the room I eq as I need and leave it. There are so many variables in venues that will mess with your tone. I gave up the holy grail of tone many years ago. Once I’ve got a tone that works for the room the music is where my head is. If the number of people in the room increases, I may tweak a little to sort that out but simple and quick is what I want.

 

[andruca]

This thread should have been over the moment some TBer mentioned Kemper in page 1. I'm familiar with them (use my partner's device in our studio -rackmount with power amp-). Haven't really used it for playing but I've reamped some bass tracks thru' it and liked the result. My only problem with Kemper is the interface. They should go full on touch screen for the front panel instead of that mess of unaligned buttons and different size knobs. The librarian (Rig Manager) is just OK. The bank/patch logic is confusing, even though I've spent 2+ decades already browsing menus. But the tones are there, TONS of tones. 90% of people won't ever use the profiling functionality (lots of profiles available from people with great studios and mics most mortals can't even get close to), so I've always thought they could well offer a slimmed down version that doesn't create profiles, just uses them. But I don't really know the technology in depth, might not be possible.

 

[eric_B]

This thread should have been over the moment some TBer mentioned...

It didn't, it's TB! It applies to a lot of topics!