I just went back and re-read the thread (it's been a while). It was a hoot. Good times.
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why are Foderas so expensive?
- Thread starter quadrogong
- Start date
I just went back and re-read the thread (it's been a while). It was a hoot. Good times.
Wow
I asked a question that generated a debate over 300 posts long,
Guess it was a juicy topic.
I asked a question that generated a debate over 300 posts long,
Guess it was a juicy topic.
Fodora basses are first and foremost, pro tools designed for pro bassists.
A number of years ago my daughter purchased a cello. She is a very competent cello player. At the same time, another student was also was auditioning cellos for a purchase. The other student was very gifted with highly developed musical skills. Three cellos were presented for the audition with no indication of price. My daughter played all three. Each had an individual charactor or tone and she sounded equally good on all three. The second student played all three. Under his fingers, the first cello sounded good, the second cello excellent and the third cello sounded unbelievable. My daughter bought the first cello for $3,500.00. The other student bought the third cello for $12,000.00. I learned that ability and talent goes a long way towards making excellent instruments soar.
A number of years ago my daughter purchased a cello. She is a very competent cello player. At the same time, another student was also was auditioning cellos for a purchase. The other student was very gifted with highly developed musical skills. Three cellos were presented for the audition with no indication of price. My daughter played all three. Each had an individual charactor or tone and she sounded equally good on all three. The second student played all three. Under his fingers, the first cello sounded good, the second cello excellent and the third cello sounded unbelievable. My daughter bought the first cello for $3,500.00. The other student bought the third cello for $12,000.00. I learned that ability and talent goes a long way towards making excellent instruments soar.
IMO Fodera is similar to Alembic: Handcrafted instruments of the highest level. Simply put, if a person's budget allows owning one, then they're not too expensive.
I assume they don't claim they're making basses for the "working musician".
I assume they don't claim they're making basses for the "working musician".
Thank you for the story. This is exactly what I mean when I say that instruments are just "filters" with limitations. They analyze what we project upon them. The "better" the filter, the fewer the limitations
Translation: Never played one.
If it were all about having more money than sense, word would have gotten out years ago and they would have been out of business at that moment.
seem to work hard at not sharing commentary on their competitors work and I understand that, however if Smith, Tobias, etc. can build them at $3K - $4K, Fodera's pricing obviously has less to do with producing a superior instrument and more to do with marketing. I would love to sit with Ken Smith and Mike Tobias over a beer and hear their thoughts. I think we would hear more about a difference in philosophy than we would about the incredibly subjective aspects of build, hardware and electronics. I've said it before, that stable of endorsees on the Fodera payroll can't be cheap either!! I say more power to the guys at Fodera; like Charles Shultz of Starbucks, if he can get you to believe that there is such thing as a $6.00 cup of coffee, then for the same reasons, someone is gonna spend $8K on a bass - marketing the magic!! That the way we roll in America and I love it!!
And no offense... if everyone had the same needs, wants and abilities that generality might have some teeth. Since they don't...
"more money than sense" pretty much comes off like the cheap shot that it is.
OTOH this one always seems to come in handy, generally speaking...
everything is not for you.
"more money than sense" pretty much comes off like the cheap shot that it is.
OTOH this one always seems to come in handy, generally speaking...
everything is not for you.
Just Thumpin'
Commercial User
- Mar 7, 2008
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- Manager and Partner, Fodera Guitars (10/14/09 - 12/16/19)
You have an important piece of misinformation in your post....
Fodera does not pay any of its artists for using their gear. Not one of them is "on the payroll." All of them found their way to Fodera through word of mouth and because they had heard great things about the instruments and / tried one at some point. Yes, some artists may get an "artist discount" when buying their gear from Fodera, but even their gear isn't given to them...
Some other things to consider...
1. Forget about what Smith and Tobias charge for their basses and just consider the following. Let's assume that Vinny and Joey charge $100 per hour in labor for building a bass. Given that they are among the 5 or 10 best builders in the world, $100 per hour is actually absurdly cheap -- can you imagine a lawyer or doctor at the top of their field charging anywhere near that little? Now, consider that each Fodera takes, on average, 40 hours to build. That's $4,000 is labor costs alone. Throw in the cost of wood, hardware, electronics and some money to keep the lights on, pay rent, etc., and it's easy to see that Foderas may cost a lot, but they are not anywhere near over-priced.
2. When it comes to fixed costs (like operating expenses, real estate taxes, utilities, the cost of labor, etc.), for better or worse, Vinny and Joey are Brooklyn born and bred and that is where their shop is...Woodstock, NY (Tobias) and Perkasie, PA (Smith) ain't even in the same league when it comes to overhead expenses.
Now, all of that said, Smith Basses and Tobias basses are KILLER basses too and frankly, all three companies under-price their gear, perhaps Fodera a bit less so, but compared to their classical-stringed instrument siblings, we are darn lucky that basses this great cost as little as they do...
For what i can see Fodera remunerate artists by giving them a lot of work organizing events, gigs, demo, etc... other to this, i think that today they have a lot of "collateral benefits" from being a "Fodera artist". From [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Vic and Oteil i concert in Japan, all Fodera and Epifani gear... :
http://www.ven-jp.com/vicLive.htm
all Fodera-related gigs, CDs, etc.:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
...mmh, Victor Wooten in Japan doing this for free? could be, who knows
:[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
I think that today, the fact of being a Fodera artist or endorser gives a lot of advertising, visibility, credibility, publicity and consideration (and work) and is also a considerable boost to the sale of your own music and career in general. I think it's like, for a race driver, driving for Ferrari F1
Certainly in the early years when Fodera basses weren't so popular in all the world, but what about today..?
well, a discount on a - let's say - $8000, $10000 instrument means A LOT of money. For what i know for some special artists receiving a "discount" means paying 50% or even 25% of the price, if not free. And like stated early, on a high priced instrument like Foderas it means that if you sell the bass you can get TOP dollars in comparison of the "little dollars" or "no dollars" that you paid, somewhat like receiving free custom basses or gear from a factory bass maker (let's say Yamaha, Ibanez or "you-name-it"). Of course, like stated in early posts I agree that Fodera's work is "over-the-top quality" and that their instruments are exceptional
IMO, IME, etc.P.S. greetings in advance to everybody for a happy new year
Just Thumpin'
Commercial User
- Mar 7, 2008
- 4,534
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- Manager and Partner, Fodera Guitars (10/14/09 - 12/16/19)
For what i can see Fodera remunerate artists by organizing a lot of events and gigs for them... other to this, i think that today they have a lot of "collateral benefits" from being a "Fodera artist". From [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Vic and Oteil i concert in Japan, all Fodera and Epifani gear... :
http://www.ven-jp.com/vicLive.htm
all Fodera-related gigs, CDs, etc.:
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
...mmh, Victor Wooten in Japan doing this for free? could be, who knows
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
I think that today, the fact of being a Fodera artist or endorser gives a lot of credibility, publicity and consideration (and work) and is also a considerable boost to the sale of your own music and career in general.
Certainly in the early years when Fodera basses weren't so popular in all the world, but what about today..?
well, a discount on a - let's say - $8000, $10000 instrument means A LOT of money. For what i know for some special artists receiving a "discount" means paying 50% or even 25% of the price, if not free. And like stated early, on a high priced instrument like Foderas it means that if you sell the bass you can get TOP dollars in comparison of the "little dollars" or "no dollars" that you paid, somewhat like receiving free custom basses or gear from a factory bass maker (let's say Yamaha, Ibanez or "you-name-it"). Like stated in early posts I agree that Fodera's work is "over-the-top quality" and that their instruments are exceptional
P.S. greetings in advance to everybody for a happy new year
Those pictures posted of all of the Fodera artists on stage together on the Japanese website were taken in Brooklyn, NY earlier this year at the Fodera 25th anniversary party (I was there) and, not one of the attendees was paid to be there -- they did it out of the love of their instruments and the respect for the people that made them....BTW, one dealer I know from Wisconsin (I bought a bass through him) flew in (on his own dime) to attend the event.
As for the discount on purchases -- I believe that an "artist discount" for Fodera is 25% off list (although I am not 100% certain about this becasue I don't qualify). Also, when was the last time you ever saw these cats selling their Foderas to make money?? Anthony Jackson has played the same bass since 1998, Richard Bona has used his Fodera for countless years, Oteil is still on bass #1, Vic has gone through 5 or 6 (all of which he still has and plays) in 25 years, Matt Garrison still uses the first bass he bought from Fodera, Mike Pope still uses the first bass Vinny made for him, Lincoln Goines still has all three of the basses that he bought...need I go on??
Forgive if I was skeptical, but if in today's world there are so important artists doing something "just for the glory" means that perhaps the world is finally going to change, that's a good news! Well, at least they have the advantage of free advertising for them on sites and sellers affiliated with Fodera.
Excluding this Fodera party, I think it's difficult to imagine a Fodera endorser do every demo, gig, or Fodera-related event for free or otherwise have no economic benefit, direct or indirect, from this "Fodera endorser" status...
You don't need to go on, I agree with you
I also believe that despite the fact that they don't need to sell their bass, even if they would need to sell, they wouldn't sell! I wasn't talking about AJ, Vic, MG, Bona, etc. that are very popular and well known bassists, i was thinking more about the new ones. Excluding the discussion about "free bass" or 25% off list price, perhaps what a Fodera artist buys is the status measured in what i stated earlier:...credibility, publicity and consideration (and work) and is also a considerable boost to the sale of your own music and career in general ...and MORE gigs, MORE selling CDs, etc.
Of course, "old" and "new" ones are over the top musicians that make great music and are incredible players. I don't think they need to be "Fodera endorsers" to have work or to be considered great musicians, i don't want to be misunderstood with this...
I have tried 2 beautiful Emperors, and perhaps one day I'll have a Fodera, who knows?
Just Thumpin'
Commercial User
- Mar 7, 2008
- 4,534
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- Manager and Partner, Fodera Guitars (10/14/09 - 12/16/19)
Thanks for your response Giovabass...I am glad you took my comments in stride and not personally. Cheers and happy holidays!
Forgive if I was skeptical, but if in today's world there are so important artists doing something "just for the glory" means that perhaps the world is finally going to change, that's a good news! Well, at least they have the advantage of free advertising for them on sites and sellers affiliated with Fodera.
Excluding this Fodera party, I think it's difficult to imagine a Fodera endorser do every demo, gig, or Fodera-related event for free or otherwise have no economic benefit, direct or indirect, from this "Fodera endorser" status...
You don't need to go on, I agree with you
...credibility, publicity and consideration (and work) and is also a considerable boost to the sale of your own music and career in general ...and MORE gigs, MORE selling CDs, etc.
I would say that it is the other way around; it's Fodera who have benefitted from their association with the players you mention rather than vice versa, although I take the point that if you see a bassist take out a Fodera you expect them to know what they are doing on bass, but at the same time, noone's going to be fooled by the bass if what the player does isn't up to scratch.
In terms of free basses, I have a friend who used to work at Fodera and as far as I know the only bass they have given away was one to Felix Pastorius - and maybe one Yin Yang to Victor Wooten when he broke the headstock off the original Yin Yang. Hey, why not? After all Wooten has done for them. Don't quote me on that though, I could be wrong.
I will also say that most of those players who use Foderas seem incredibly loyal and dedicated to the company. Check out any of Mike Pope's posts here and what Anthony Jackson has to say about them. Bona seems to be the exception; he's been using his bass less and less recently it seems.
Finally, about prices, I'm sure I mentioned somewhere else in this thread that if their prices were lower, imagine what there waiting list would be! If you could get a Fodera for $3000 there would be a 30 year backlog of Victor Wooten classics on order there and they'd have to take on more staff and buy a CNC machine and then people would complain that quality was going down because Vinnie wouldn't be hand carving every single bass etc., etc.
The wait times are bad enough as it is already.
Who's offended? Not me. I find these types of threads to be very informative.
I hope my opinion didn't offend you. The idea that people you don't know have more money than brains is an opinion held by many people. It also speaks for itself IMO.
If everything is not for you is a given and if as you said "I think they are wonderful for the player who feels he needs one. Personally, I don't need one. It's only my opinion but I believe that if you buy any expensive bass that is more than you need then yes that is certainly your prerogative but not necessarily sensible"...
Maybe if you replaced the underlined "you's" with "I" it would make more sense. After all, "need" is a pretty nebulous concept when it comes to musical instruments. So is looking at others and deciding what you think they need.
Focusing on the cost of the instrument as if it's the only or primary differentiator doesn't make a whole lot of sense either IMO. You don't see the point for yourself? Sweet. You don't see the point for others? That shouldn't be that hard to figure out.
They are amazingly well built basses and play super well.
I wouldn't buy one (even if I were a super rich fella) but they are top notch all along thier specs.
In some cases some gear is more for prestege than not... that part is NOT a cheap shot ... a Seiko watch will tell time as well as a Rolex. it's a matter of attention to detail and craftmanship that drive some gear prices.
MY best friend had a super nice Fodera and I loved it, and he also loved my Peavey Dyna-bass... go figure... if you demand the best it's possibly THE bass for you... for others I felt that Sadowsky is as good for Pbass type copies.
But yeah, I never heard anyone that had one complain about it.
I wouldn't buy one (even if I were a super rich fella) but they are top notch all along thier specs.
In some cases some gear is more for prestege than not... that part is NOT a cheap shot ... a Seiko watch will tell time as well as a Rolex. it's a matter of attention to detail and craftmanship that drive some gear prices.
MY best friend had a super nice Fodera and I loved it, and he also loved my Peavey Dyna-bass... go figure... if you demand the best it's possibly THE bass for you... for others I felt that Sadowsky is as good for Pbass type copies.
But yeah, I never heard anyone that had one complain about it.
I'd argue that Omega beat Rolex hands down......
Anyway...
The Fodera's I've played have not only been flawlessly beautiful, pristine sounding instruments, but they've also got incredible character. Many high end luthiers basses have slightly more character and a little less quality. Many other boutique brands have more quality and less life. Foderas have both, in my experience.
