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Why are lined Fretless even a thing?
- Thread starter citizenchris099
- Start date
As do I.....
I have 3 other 4004 models,and think they’re the best basses the company ever produced.
Although i am quite partial to my modded ‘74 4000, too.
I realize there’s lots of fretless players (outside of classical music of course) that only play unlined (while still staring down the fingerboard) but as long as guys like Sean Malone, Gary Willis, and even John Myung (on occasion) continue to play lined fretless instruments, then I will too. Even if they do stop someday, I’ll still be playing lined and so will many others. There’s nothing wrong with it and its not nearly as big a crutch as some people like to think.
Even Tony Franklin very recently posted on social media “the side dots are my friends” despite playing an unlined board for decades. Just play what you want, use your ears, and do what you need to do to get to the level you want to be at.
Even Tony Franklin very recently posted on social media “the side dots are my friends” despite playing an unlined board for decades. Just play what you want, use your ears, and do what you need to do to get to the level you want to be at.
It seems to be a thing to ask why something is even a thing...
*Drinks beer, and then some shots.*
I’m always amazed at upright players, no lines , no dots , nothing, just 4 strings and a fingerboard. How about a trumpet or trombone, I’ve never played one of those, how do you find all the notes with just that sliding thing or just 3 buttons?
Again, it's not about sucking. Go get an unlined fretless. Only has side dots on the normal side dot locations (even if they're properly aligned to the fret for fretless playing, not between frets like on a fretted bass).
Now go play Eb on the G string without hearing it first. Plug it in, record it, make sure it's in tune, don't check before, just look at the bass as carefully as you like without actually pressing a string to hear any notes (the right one or a relavite one) and play Eb on the G string. Go play some stuff in 1st position, and then jump up to it.
Nail that 5 times in a row, without having to correct your pitch even slightly ONCE you can HEAR it, and then get back to me about why seeing where you are GOING to play is as important as being able to hear perfectly and fix your intonation perfectly once you CAN hear it.
It's not a question of hearing. It goes without saying that you must have a great ear for pitch to play fretless really well.
It's a question of repeatability of awkward jumps and stretches so you nail the note perfectly EVERY TIME before you have to hear it.
Otherwise, if you're playing at the level I used to have to play at, and all successful session players work at, you're out of a job if the mix engineer has to fix the pitch of your notes once in a while like he has to for the singer.
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I think we agree, then. The lines are useful, no matter the skills.
E flat on the G string, 6th fret? Did you mean D flat?
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It is easier to play out-of-tune on an electric bass then a upright because of the scale difference. And honestly a out-of-tune bass is very awful to the ears, the mates and the audience...
It IS amazing, but always remember:
- upright bass is WAY longer scale than electric bass. A tiny error on 34" fretless sounds out of tune obviously. Upright is more forgiving as it the same physical finger misplacement will result in less of a tuning error in cents. Also an upright has far more physical points of reference for your different playing positions than a bass guitar does - the body comes into play far earlier than on a bass guitar.
- trombone players can see their hand, as can other instrumentalists. It still is amazing though yes.
- I'm a violinist - talk about tiny errors in finger placement making huge differences - it's like a quarter tone out if you're off by a couple mm. You HAVE to be 100% accurate, essentially all the time, and you have to go by feel mostly since you're looking down on the fingerboard so can't really see much depth detail.
Well....
Numerous early incarnations of string instruments had movable gut frets, e.g. viol di gamba, theorbo, archlute, etc. Some early contrabasses also had frets on the lower half of the fingerboard.
The bass guitar draws from both the violin tradition (typically without frets) and the guitar tradition (typically with frets). Plus, most instruments in the violin family are bowed; the bass guitar is not. So, that is two more ways that bass guitars are quite different from many other instruments.
Well....
One reason not to look at the neck is so you can read sheet music. Needless to say, that matters more to some people than others.
Relying on hearing is a good plan... if you are in a situation where you can very clearly hear your intonation; that isn't always the case.
Developing the muscle memory is great... unless you frequently switch between fretted and fretless instruments, or don't spend a lot of time playing fretless.
In other words, lines on a fretless are just another tool. They work for some people, not for others. I'd say it is more important to know the pros and cons, than to strongly suggest that people use an option that doesn't work well for their specific situation.
the coolest thing about a fretless is that it is fretless (lineless). that plain fretboard looks so cool.
that said, i would totally need the lines to play one.
that said, i would totally need the lines to play one.
Whoever said that looking at your fingering hand when you play is bad... has been given bad information.
EVERY experienced musician can play without looking. But if you are playing really challenging stuff, you memorize the hard parts and watch your hands, on any instrument where there is a possible benefit from doing so.
so yea, never look at your hands while you play. Let me just google some amazing bassists:
Tony Franklin
Pino Palladino
Gary Willis (note the fret lines)
Jaco Pastorius
I could count the number of times they took their eyes OFF their fretting hands.
just jumping to random excellent violinist:
Hilary Hahn (world great, playing paganini cap 24)
EVERY experienced musician can play without looking. But if you are playing really challenging stuff, you memorize the hard parts and watch your hands, on any instrument where there is a possible benefit from doing so.
so yea, never look at your hands while you play. Let me just google some amazing bassists:
Tony Franklin
Pino Palladino
Gary Willis (note the fret lines)
Jaco Pastorius
I could count the number of times they took their eyes OFF their fretting hands.
just jumping to random excellent violinist:
Hilary Hahn (world great, playing paganini cap 24)
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The first post of this thread summarized: "Somebody does something differently from me! She's a witch! Burn her!"
By the way, (yes, I agree with your wife, firstly LoL), and your wife says it's cheating because on cello ( a ) you train for years to do what we often strive to do in months on electric bass, ( b ) on cello it is quite possible to get so you can jump around much of the neck main positions reliably in tune because of the structure of learning the instrument, the strictness of technique, the work required to be able to play well (which reenforces your learning of the positions and accurate tuning), and also because it's much more difficult on a bass guitar with a full octave per string before you get to any body feel that could become a way to know where you're shifting to.... than on a cell where you encounter significant changes in the feel of the back of the neck, the attachment of the body, etc as you go into positions that aren't nearly as high as they are on a bass guitar.
I'm by no means saying cello is easier to play - it's harder in literally every way - EXCEPT in that you do have feel cues for where you are in higher positions that don't exist on bass guitar.
Speaking as a violinist, violist, and bass guitarist... who's currently learning cello
There isn't any serious classical musician who uses markers. It's not done.
But it's also not beneficial to classical instruments.
I absolutely guarantee, after playing fretless professionally for years in a multitude of styles, it is much harder to jump around blindfolded on a bass guitar than on these other instruments being discussed. I mean, you CAN DO IT. And you can do it really well with experience. However, it will never be as reliable to do so on a bass guitar, due to sheer physics of the design of the instrument. There is no play for your left thumb to reach for to tell you where you are, no play where the edge of your hand touches the body and tells you to change shape for the higher positions... at least not until you're playing in the 15th frets and upwards from there (Depending on your bass).
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I play mostly upright, but also fretless electric. My upright has no lines, my electric basses do. Some reasons:
1. I de-fretted both of my basses myself, so I had to fill the slots with something. I used "mahogany" colored Plastic Wood. In one case it has held up great for 30+ years. The contrast between the fret lines and the rosewood fingerboards (or mystery wood, whatever) is subtle, but I can see it well enough on stage when I need to.
2. Obviously I can't play while paying full attention to the fret lines, because there is so much else going on. Reading, interacting with the band, looking out into the audience, checking to see who's coming in the front door, etc. But once in a while there's a note in the middle of the board that I just have to grab, so a quick visual reference when I need it is helpful.
3. The upright bass has a host of tactile references: The curves of the neck, touching your arm against the bout, etc. In contrast, an electric bass neck is almost 2 octaves of no mans land. Sometimes I need the help.
The first thing is serving the music, the band, and the audience, not my own vanity. It would be crazy for me to claim to have impeccable intonation on either upright or electric. And in any event, recording myself would quickly settle that matter.
Very late in his life, Ray Brown told a reporter that he still worked on his intonation, every day.
1. I de-fretted both of my basses myself, so I had to fill the slots with something. I used "mahogany" colored Plastic Wood. In one case it has held up great for 30+ years. The contrast between the fret lines and the rosewood fingerboards (or mystery wood, whatever) is subtle, but I can see it well enough on stage when I need to.
2. Obviously I can't play while paying full attention to the fret lines, because there is so much else going on. Reading, interacting with the band, looking out into the audience, checking to see who's coming in the front door, etc. But once in a while there's a note in the middle of the board that I just have to grab, so a quick visual reference when I need it is helpful.
3. The upright bass has a host of tactile references: The curves of the neck, touching your arm against the bout, etc. In contrast, an electric bass neck is almost 2 octaves of no mans land. Sometimes I need the help.
The first thing is serving the music, the band, and the audience, not my own vanity. It would be crazy for me to claim to have impeccable intonation on either upright or electric. And in any event, recording myself would quickly settle that matter.
Very late in his life, Ray Brown told a reporter that he still worked on his intonation, every day.
