You figure we have come a long way since the 50s. So why do the new tubes they produce today suck compared to the older ones. Why can't they make replicas of the old telefunken tubes for instance?
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Why are old tubes better than new ones?
- Thread starter WarriorJoe7
- Start date
I think (I am not sure about this) that in the "old days" a LOT more tubes were being needed and therefore produced in larger numbers. So it was easier to find the "good ones" than today.
I like my 'new' tubes.... I think a lot of the whole relic / mojo / vintage hysteria fuels the market.
Hi.
IMHO the greatest part of the tube production, the skilled and experienced workers, was lost when the semiconductors took over in mass produced equipment and the tube production ended in the west.
Another part was the tube manufacturers reputation, inferior tubes just didn't pass the tests.
Todays tubes are getting better IME, because there's more people willing to pay for the better (or more carefully selected) tubes.
I don't know how it's been in the other parts of the world, but here in Finland the price has been (and usually still is) the ONLY ONE deciding factor when choosing replacement tubes.
Regards
Sam
IMHO the greatest part of the tube production, the skilled and experienced workers, was lost when the semiconductors took over in mass produced equipment and the tube production ended in the west.
Another part was the tube manufacturers reputation, inferior tubes just didn't pass the tests.
Todays tubes are getting better IME, because there's more people willing to pay for the better (or more carefully selected) tubes.
I don't know how it's been in the other parts of the world, but here in Finland the price has been (and usually still is) the ONLY ONE deciding factor when choosing replacement tubes.
Regards
Sam
Maybe it's a quality control thing or the materials used ...
But I've yet to hear the modern equal to these
... That said I do think there is some snob appeal involved with old tube buyers
But I've yet to hear the modern equal to these
... That said I do think there is some snob appeal involved with old tube buyers
It's a matter of trust for me. I trust older tubes a lot more than I trust new ones. Generally, they last a lot longer and are more reliable for me.
bongomania
Commercial User
I have swapped in a huge variety of 12A*7 tubes, new and old, in at least a dozen different preamps and compressors. IMO it's a crap shoot- sometimes the expensive vintage one really does sound better, but not always. There was at least one device where I found the stock generic new Chinese tube actually sounded best in that device. Another angle: since few of us perform truly blind listening tests, I suspect the tubes that sound best to us are usually the ones we think will sound best.
Because in the 50's & 60's tubes were state of the art. They were being used in critical applications by industry as well as the military. Manufacturing quality control was very high. But, after the development of transistors, the demand for tubes went down the toilet. Since only a small number of musicians and audio people clung to tube technology, all the manufacturing plants in 1st world countries subsequently shut down over the next decade. At this point, tubes were only available from countries like China and the USSR with very low quality control. So, people sought out old tubes from the 50's & 60's for their quality and reliability. That's the story in a nut shell. But I have to agree with a previous poster, the quality of tubes has very much improved since they've become a boutique item.
On a side note, my mom actually worked in an RCA tube plant in the late 50's.
John
On a side note, my mom actually worked in an RCA tube plant in the late 50's.
John
Sorry for the bit of off topic , but how many plants left , worldwild of tube makers ?
Probably a lot are marketed under different names comes from the same factory....
I can think of Sylvania , Sovtek , who else? ( not brand but makers)
Probably a lot are marketed under different names comes from the same factory....
I can think of Sylvania , Sovtek , who else? ( not brand but makers)
Makes sense. I'd take it a step further and say that the major modern manufacturers of tube amps aren't looking for high quality tubes. They are looking for afordablilty, so the major demand for tubes is for inexpensive ones.
I doubt that a smaller "boutique" tube manufacturer could survive making the small number of 'good' tubes that are desired today. (I wonder what it would cost for all the tooling and machinery.)
So, I would say that the reason that new tubes aren't as good as old tubes is that the manufacturers are more concerned about writing 'all-tube' on their product literature than they are about using good-high quality components.
The problem with NOS tubes, however, is that as the price goes up and up, so does the number of scam artists who relabel them or pull used tubes out of older components.
The good news it that there are more and more people who are looking for these NOS tubes and maybe there will be a reniasance of sorts.
Sylvania hasn't made tubes in over 30 years. They were bought out by Philips in the late 1970's, so the most recent of those will be US made Philips ECG.
Here is a link to list of current tube manufacturers.
The difference between a "cheap" tube and a "good" tube is not determined most by build quality, but rather quality control. When US makers were still cranking out tubes by the truckloads, audio tubes were the LEAST common, but since they were "flagship" items, factories worked hard to carefully screen out bad ones before they went to market. Audio tubes have ALWAYS been low volume production. Yes, there were materials and production expertise that have been lost, but far and away the biggest factor of modern tubes having a bad rep is that the factories no longer pre-screen them.
There IS a US "boutique" tube maker who has been quietly producing tubes for years, Western Electric (which, BTW, is a new company and NOT the old commercial arm of Bell Labs/RCA).
Actually Sylvania branded tubes were made here up into the 80's, I somewhere have the manager's card from after the SLM Ampeg purchase. We bought probably the LAST run of some tube types from that factory.
You could NEVER get good tubes, even way back..... at least not at retail outlets.
That is because the equipment manufacturers had the tubes selected for best performance. The ones you could buy as replacements tended to be the ones that were in the "good" range, but OUTSIDE the limits established by the OEM manufacturers for the tubes they bought.
So for instance, if you bought a Sylvania power tube, it would NOT match the others in teh unit from the factory....... Those were all bought by the OEMs and didn't kmake it to the retail level.
But even THOSE tubes tended to be 'very good". They would have a different bias point, gain, or more noise, but they were not the scattered specs of some tubes made now.
Not only that, some tubes made now and sold as some particular type, are not really that type, but a similar type which was already made, and was "pretty close". I used to know some examples, but they may be out of date now. That was Russian-made stuff.... The chinese bought some of the actual old factories, and can make the real parts, they just need better QC.
You could NEVER get good tubes, even way back..... at least not at retail outlets.
That is because the equipment manufacturers had the tubes selected for best performance. The ones you could buy as replacements tended to be the ones that were in the "good" range, but OUTSIDE the limits established by the OEM manufacturers for the tubes they bought.
So for instance, if you bought a Sylvania power tube, it would NOT match the others in teh unit from the factory....... Those were all bought by the OEMs and didn't kmake it to the retail level.
But even THOSE tubes tended to be 'very good". They would have a different bias point, gain, or more noise, but they were not the scattered specs of some tubes made now.
Not only that, some tubes made now and sold as some particular type, are not really that type, but a similar type which was already made, and was "pretty close". I used to know some examples, but they may be out of date now. That was Russian-made stuff.... The chinese bought some of the actual old factories, and can make the real parts, they just need better QC.
Also worth considering is that the materials used vs. price for materials, including government controls, have changed. Tube manufacturers from that period were in the business of making money, and if they could get cheaper materials for less $ and the performance was empirically the same, they're going to go the cheaper route.
Maybe it's a quality control thing or the materials used ...
But I've yet to hear the modern equal to these
Amen to that! I just love them old Telefunkens!
My favorites are the older ones--which one depends on what job it's doing. Now, having said that--I will take my chances with a known-good new tube than an unproven older tube. I've been quite pleased with some of the newer 12A*7s on the market. Solid, even tone and they tend to be consistent within the brand. (i.e. If I like what a new JJ sounds like in V2 in my Budda, then I will likely get a repeat performance when it's time to replace it) However, they still probably won't be as lush as a Mullard or as tight & even as a GE.
"Winged C" tubes are made from the same factory that used to produce Svetlana. Svetlana brand is now being produced elsewhere.
I believe JJ's are made in the old Tesla factory. I recently bought two JJ 12AU7's for my SVT, which leads me too -
Are Groove Tubes really worth the extra money? I put some GT12AX7's in my SVT's preamp as well, but it's been in the shop ever since and I've not had the chance to really hear them. Otherwise, I'd just draw my own conclusion.
I believe JJ's are made in the old Tesla factory. I recently bought two JJ 12AU7's for my SVT, which leads me too -
Are Groove Tubes really worth the extra money? I put some GT12AX7's in my SVT's preamp as well, but it's been in the shop ever since and I've not had the chance to really hear them. Otherwise, I'd just draw my own conclusion.
No they're not. Groove Tubes are rebranded and no less prone to ka-flooey than any others, despite what they say. You're better off getting tubes from the actual makers.
