Why are old tubes better than new ones?

[Jman60]

Because in the 50's & 60's tubes were state of the art. They were being used in critical applications by industry as well as the military. Manufacturing quality control was very high. But, after the development of transistors, the demand for tubes went down the toilet. Since only a small number of musicians and audio people clung to tube technology, all the manufacturing plants in 1st world countries subsequently shut down over the next decade. At this point, tubes were only available from countries like China and the USSR with very low quality control. So, people sought out old tubes from the 50's & 60's for their quality and reliability. That's the story in a nut shell. But I have to agree with a previous poster, the quality of tubes has very much improved since they've become a boutique item.

On a side note, my mom actually worked in an RCA tube plant in the late 50's.

John

Spot on, the military needed very high quality components to operate radios, ect. in the field and they had to be durable and take a lot abuse. Stereos and TV's back then were all tube driven. Not to mention computers, like at NASA, the one's the size of a warehouse used tubes.

Personally I use JJ's in my amps and have had no issues with them. Never liked Groove Tubes, overpriced, they have just as many issues as any other brand and don't sound that good for the price as far as I'm concerned.

 

[seamonkey]

“Where a calculator on the ENIAC is equipped with 18,000 vacuum tubes and weighs 30 tons, computers in the future may have only 1,000 vacuum tubes and perhaps weigh 1-1/2 tons.”
Popular Mechanics, 1949.

 

[Jman60]

“Where a calculator on the ENIAC is equipped with 18,000 vacuum tubes and weighs 30 tons, computers in the future may have only 1,000 vacuum tubes and perhaps weigh 1-1/2 tons.”
Popular Mechanics, 1949.

18,000 tubes, 30 tons???? I just can't picture that!!
Amazing,... just amazing!!!

 

[JimmyM]

18,000 tubes, 30 tons???? I just can't picture that!!
Amazing,... just amazing!!!

Dude, have you ever seen those stock footage clips of giant computers from the 40's with four or five women hooking up patch cables into this switchboard that encompasses an entire large wall? I could easily see those computers weighing 30 tons. I'm so glad they got computers down to 1 1/2 tons and only 1000 tubes, though...makes them much easier to carry on airplanes

 

[quickervicar]

Are Groove Tubes really worth the extra money? I put some GT12AX7's in my SVT's preamp as well, but it's been in the shop ever since and I've not had the chance to really hear them. Otherwise, I'd just draw my own conclusion.

IME, I've never had a "bad" Groove Tube. Most of their stuff is rebadged, but they are tested & grouped according to their sonic characteristics. I think that this is helpful for those trying to experiment with different tube types. You can usually end up saving money by getting the original-branded tubes instead of the Groove Tubes, but you may need a little more guidance & knowledge to get what you want.

And as far as being a tube-snob goes, I suppose I am guilty. However, I'll be the first to admit that I really think my little Nemesis combo sounds pretty stinkin' good, too.

 

[Jman60]

Dude, have you ever seen those stock footage clips of giant computers from the 40's with four or five women hooking up patch cables into this switchboard that encompasses an entire large wall? I could easily see those computers weighing 30 tons. I'm so glad they got computers down to 1 1/2 tons and only 1000 tubes, though...makes them much easier to carry on airplanes

Now that you mention it I have. But it's still amazing that something like that was basically just a calculator. And I'm glad that they made them a bit smaller too,.... I don't have to carry one on an airplane!!

 

[Bassmec]

Just get some JJ's and call it a day.

One of my best customers has just retubed his custom JJ tubed Matamp with NOS Mullards we did a blind AB on just the first pre amp tube alone the difference was a noticable improvement in the low frequency response more gain
and a far less strident and fractious high frequency response with a much smoother onset of distortion.
In the days that these tubes where made there where a great many people with a lifetime of experience, making them in huge quantities with state of the art large scale production tooling and military contracts demanding very high standards of reliability and consistency of performance.
This is no longer the case.

 

[jimbilly]

Similar to stated above, during the cold war they were really getting it right with quality, I think that was due to the military demanding quality and paying for it. Since they're pretty much out of the tube buying business, it's not quite as lucrative as it once was. Here's some you don't see everyday, the Mullard Master 10M series, rated for 10,000 hours. From my personal collection

 

[blockinlay]

Who says they suck? Most tube users don't know jack about tubes.
Some tube types just sound good, and have gained a following over the years.
Some have more problems than others and were not made to be used in a guitar amp application.
It's really trial and error, but if you are a tone freak and do your research, you can determine what the popular tubes are, and what sound you want, vintage or new.
Being in short supply is why vintage sell for so much money.
You still get sound regardless of the tube, and many new tubes don't suck, plus thay are now remaking some of those old tube types.
The combination of tubes makes a difference too, but there are other factors involved, and when you come down to it, it's just opinion and what you like.
I use a specific type of power tube only because I like it, and use different new and vintage preamp tubes in different areas of an amp even though they are the same value.
I take the time to do trial and error.
Tubes are not perfect, they wear out with use.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

I've tried a bunch of tubes in my Shuttle 6. I like Telefunken the best. Warm, clear, full presence - much more than the stock Ruby tube. Interestingly, I tried 3 Telefunkens and each sounded different. The one I'm using now clearly sounded best so that's the one in my amp. The others are backups, which I'll probably never need.

 

[Bassgrinder77]

Yup, that's it. In the 50's, tubes were state of the art so they were made of the best materials by the best people in the best places. Now they're made in old crumbling rusty plants in bleak post-communist Chernobyl wastelands staffed by drunk zombies using inferior materials.

Because in the 50's & 60's tubes were state of the art. They were being used in critical applications by industry as well as the military. Manufacturing quality control was very high. But, after the development of transistors, the demand for tubes went down the toilet. Since only a small number of musicians and audio people clung to tube technology, all the manufacturing plants in 1st world countries subsequently shut down over the next decade. At this point, tubes were only available from countries like China and the USSR with very low quality control. So, people sought out old tubes from the 50's & 60's for their quality and reliability. That's the story in a nut shell. But I have to agree with a previous poster, the quality of tubes has very much improved since they've become a boutique item.

On a side note, my mom actually worked in an RCA tube plant in the late 50's.

John

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Yup, that's it. In the 50's, tubes were state of the art so they were made of the best materials by the best people in the best places. Now they're made in old crumbling rusty plants in bleak post-communist Chernobyl wastelands staffed by drunk zombies using inferior materials.

-1. MiGs, Scuds, T60s, SAM 10s and other Soviet era military hardware didn't go to SS, as tubes are immune to EMP. Therefore Eastern Bloc tubes were of very high quality long after Western sources had disappeared. Chances are the Chinese military is still highly entrenched in tubes, not wanting their entire defense system to be knocked out by a few skyburst nukes.

 

[synaesthesia]

I have swapped in a huge variety of 12A*7 tubes, new and old, in at least a dozen different preamps and compressors. IMO it's a crap shoot-

So have I and so.....+1. And that to vintage equipment of any description as well.

If a telefunken or mullard NOS works for you and you want to pay the premium being asked, all power to you.

 

[The Golden Boy]

So have I and so.....+1. And that to vintage equipment of any description as well.

If a telefunken or mullard NOS works for you and you want to pay the premium being asked, all power to you.

My main guitar amp is a 1978 50w Marshall MV head. A few years ago I went on a spree and went trying loads and loads of tubes, old, new, cheap, expensive in that amp- shooting for a more "plexi-ey" sound out of it. Every tube in every position sounded pretty much the same- I went through a few settings in on the pre adjustment, at different volume levels- and I really couldn't pick out the expensive tubes from the cheap ones. So I thought all this tube talk was bunk or just something for cork sniffers to congratulate themselves about. Some time after that I had one of my amps ('66 Showman) gone through and there was an amazing change to it- the tech said he just changed power tubes and did a minor tweak to it. So I started thinking that power tubes is where it was at, but only sorta (ie 'fresh tubes make things beautiful'). A couple of years back I got a set of Mullards from my Brother In Law. Again, I tried them in the Marshall, and I couldn't tell the difference from whatever was in there... but I put them in my Park (essentially the same amp as the Marshall)... and WHOA!!! I got the Park solely because it was a Park. A somewhat rare amp, combined with it being one of the last Parks made- it was OK, but not spectacular. It had this "grittyness" to it that I really didn't like- After replacing whatever tubes were in there- the amp went from gritty to smooth, and it was more responsive in both the controlability of the pre control but also in how the amp responded to playing. THAT was freakin' amazing. Again, I went through all the 12ax7s I had around the house, and it was those 3 Mullards that had that similar effect on that amp- some sounded better than the ones that were originally in there, but those tubes sounded the best. After a bit of mixing and matching I've kept 2 Mullards in V1 and V2 of the Park and put one in V1 of the Marshall... Just because.

My theory is now that SOME amps are more receptive to changes in tubes than others.

 

[metron]

My theory is now that SOME amps are more receptive to changes in tubes than others.

Exactly... it depends on the circuit in which they are used. All the talk about the "tone" of tubes (which there is a lot) is a lot of bs unless someone is referencing a specific circuit.

Old vs new? I don't know personally which is better if any.

 

[seamonkey]

-1. MiGs, Scuds, T60s, SAM 10s and other Soviet era military hardware didn't go to SS, as tubes are immune to EMP. Therefore Eastern Bloc tubes were of very high quality long after Western sources had disappeared. Chances are the Chinese military is still highly entrenched in tubes, not wanting their entire defense system to be knocked out by a few skyburst nukes.

Just not true that SS is more risk, i.e.
Link Removed

In any case, something with enough EMP to knockout military designed SS gear is going to be big enough to knock out the electrical systems in our bodies.

There is no military use for electron tubes used in any MI gear.

 

[JimmyM]

Exactly... it depends on the circuit in which they are used. All the talk about the "tone" of tubes (which there is a lot) is a lot of bs unless someone is referencing a specific circuit.

Old vs new? I don't know personally which is better if any.

Me neither, but I can tell you that I've had way better experiences with NOS tubes than new, and that's the reason I only buy NOS now.