Why are people afraid to use their gear?

[turf3]

You know why the electric bassist in 1953 playing a 51P through a Bassman combo didn't fiddle?
Cause there was really nothing to fiddle with.
But I guarantee he was thinking "gee I wish I could be heard through this 26 watt amp. The guitarist cuts right through the mix!!!!".
The more headroom and knobs I have the more likely I can find a pleasing sound that cuts through.

Well, actually, the most immediately obvious fact about the Fender bass as compared to the upright was how much louder it was and how much better it cut through.

In 1953, they weren't comparing the Precision Bass through a 26W amp against a Rickenbacker with Rotosounds through an Ampeg fridge; they were comparing it against a double bass with nothin'.

In fact if you notice, rock and roll was upright basses for quite a while after the Fender bass was introduced. It wasn't till the late 50s that the electric bass totally took over in rock and roll and the volume of everything started seriously climbing. Country western jazz and R&B musicians were the initial adopters of the Fender bass.

But the reason I brought Monk Montgomery and Hamp into the conversation was the claim that just plugging in the bass to the amp and playing was some kind of recent hipster trend. Well, in geological terms 1953 is practically yesterday, but in human terms it shows that far from being a "recent hipster trend" it's been a mode of using the electric bass ever since the electric bass was introduced. Even in the late 60s/early 70s when rock players were trying pretty much every electronic effect anyone could come up with, electric bass players in other forms (and yes, there ARE other kinds of music!) were mostly using it pretty straight. Listen, for example, to Ray Brown playing electric (!!!) on Quincy Jones' album "Walking in Space", or any of the various country bands from the same time period.

 

[Harper]

I think it's as much or more that gear companies have convinced people that they need more gear than is necessary, so it's weird to some when people get up with the basics. Lord knows I've overspent and bought too much gear, and I enjoy a lot of it.....but 95% of it is unnecessary.

It's odder to me when people have all the wiz bang bells and whistles, multiple basses, a flash amp, tons of pedals, blah blah blah........to get up and play Mustang Sally at the dive bar.

Seriously....unless it's it's totally off the rails bad/annoying, *almost no one outside of other musicians cares about your bass tone*

To each their own and such.

 

[Lance Bunyon]

Well, actually, the most immediately obvious fact about the Fender bass as compared to the upright was how much louder it was and how much better it cut through.

In 1953, they weren't comparing the Precision Bass through a 26W amp against a Rickenbacker with Rotosounds through an Ampeg fridge; they were comparing it against a double bass with nothin'.

In fact if you notice, rock and roll was upright basses for quite a while after the Fender bass was introduced. It wasn't till the late 50s that the electric bass totally took over in rock and roll and the volume of everything started seriously climbing. Country western jazz and R&B musicians were the initial adopters of the Fender bass.

But the reason I brought Monk Montgomery and Hamp into the conversation was the claim that just plugging in the bass to the amp and playing was some kind of recent hipster trend. Well, in geological terms 1953 is practically yesterday, but in human terms it shows that far from being a "recent hipster trend" it's been a mode of using the electric bass ever since the electric bass was introduced. Even in the late 60s/early 70s when rock players were trying pretty much every electronic effect anyone could come up with, electric bass players in other forms (and yes, there ARE other kinds of music!) were mostly using it pretty straight. Listen, for example, to Ray Brown playing electric (!!!) on Quincy Jones' album "Walking in Space", or any of the various country bands from the same time period.

Not to flame, but any upright player who could in 1953 mic'd his bass. Certainly a 51 P cut through better. Electric bass is a different instrument. Faster. Brighter.the note takes far longer to decay. Portable amplifiers changed pop music for good. It took 16 players to get people dancing before amplification. Now I feel like I'm yelling st clouds. I need a nap.

 

[turf3]

Not to flame, but any upright player who could in 1953 mic'd his bass. Certainly a 51 P cut through better. Electric bass is a different instrument. Faster. Brighter.the note takes far longer to decay. Portable amplifiers changed pop music for good. It took 16 players to get people dancing before amplification. Now I feel like I'm yelling st clouds. I need a nap.

Yeah, but even then you still couldn't hear it. Thus the rapid acceptance of the electric bass.

At any rate, the concept of just plugging the electric bass into the amplifier and using the controls provided on each, the keep it simple method, is hardly a "new hipster trend" - it's been one way, often the main way, people used the EB, since its beginning.

Remember., the original premise was a faulty one, that people who don't use a bunch of pedals and effects are somehow "afraid" of it - OP did not accept that a bunch of people just don't want to mess with all that stuff, since they're happy enough with the KISS setup and its results.

 

[Swings]

Yeah, but even then you still couldn't hear it. Thus the rapid acceptance of the electric bass.

At any rate, the concept of just plugging the electric bass into the amplifier and using the controls provided on each, the keep it simple method, is hardly a "new hipster trend" - it's been one way, often the main way, people used the EB, since its beginning..

Can’t provide a link but i read somewhere recently that pBass was not as smooth a transition for DB players as was anticipated- yes, it was electric, able to be heard, had frets for “precision” - it was the necks. A number of standup players did not like the neck dimensions.
The “jazz” followed…
Could it have been that moving to a more outward extension of the arm and resulting wrist turn also contributed… ?

 

[brianrost]

A number of standup players did not like the neck dimensions.
The “jazz” followed…

Which is actually ridiculous because a J neck is even skinner than a P neck. Who knows what Leo was thinking. Compared to any bass guitar neck, a DB neck feels like an actual baseball bat.

 

[Michedelic]

Can’t provide a link but i read somewhere recently that pBass was not as smooth a transition for DB players as was anticipated- yes, it was electric, able to be heard, had frets for “precision” - it was the necks. A number of standup players did not like the neck dimensions.
The “jazz” followed…
Could it have been that moving to a more outward extension of the arm and resulting wrist turn also contributed… ?

You skipped a step…the baseball bat neck of the ‘51 P got refined during the redesign into the P that we know today, and have known for just over 65 years. But the difference between the subsequent thinner Jazz and the streamlined P wasn’t enough to be more enticing to an upright player used to a much larger neck. There was a cultural resistance as well, Monk Montgomery notwithstanding. So I can’t see the neck being an attraction.
They just didn’t flock to the J, or any other Fender, in droves. It was only after the shift was underway, with the electric winning over rock, country, blues, and R&B players(most having been former guitarists), that the upright crowd, if they wanted to keep working at previous levels, had to adapt. They begrudgingly went with it, and many got used to it, if not embrace it.

 

[Swings]

Which is actually ridiculous because a J neck is even skinner than a P neck. Who knows what Leo was thinking. Compared to any bass guitar neck, a DB neck feels like an actual baseball bat.

I mentioned it, was interested on reading some perspectives.
The webpage i read the information on did not provide context as to why the P neck/bass was disliked by upright players.
My own experiences with P necks versus every other bass i have played is that they are uncomfortable and too much work considering there are only 4 strings.
Upright and EB are so different, it is a stretch to compare playing pbass neck and a DB neck and reason “pbass is easier because the neck is so much thinner”.

The musculature, angles and forces at work cannot be compared.

Comparing apples with apples, not apples with bananas would make more sense, however it’s my mistake i muddied the original reasoning for a thicker p neck being less comfortable.
At electric bass angle any more thickness makes the bass harder to work (for me)

 

[BassBrass]

I'm not even sure what "afraid" is supposed to mean in this thread.

View attachment 5057439

I think it means "never even thought of trying" And that's pretty normal in this man's army.

 

[brianrost]

My own experiences with P necks versus every other bass i have played is that they are uncomfortable and too much work considering there are only 4 strings.
Upright and EB are so different, it is a stretch to compare playing pbass neck and a DB neck and reason “pbass is easier because the neck is so much thinner”.

My experience has been the opposite.

Unless I am practicing repertoire for a BG-only gig, I only practice on the DB (music is music, right?). When I pick up a BG after playing only the DB for a few weeks, it feels like I just strapped on a rocket ship...thinner neck, shorter scale and lower string tension all contribute. I do notice a difference with 1.5" nuts vs. 1.75" nuts as well...thinner feels easier/faster.

 

[brianrost]

I think it means "never even thought of trying" And that's pretty normal in this man's army.

I paid for the knobs so I try them It doesn't take long to figure out what works for me and what doesn't.

Effects, well they cost money. I'm not inclined to flip gear on a regular basis just to see if it does something incredible.

It was easier back when there were plenty of stores around where you could try stuff out and keep yourself from wasting money.

 

[turf3]

Can’t provide a link but i read somewhere recently that pBass was not as smooth a transition for DB players as was anticipated- yes, it was electric, able to be heard, had frets for “precision” - it was the necks. A number of standup players did not like the neck dimensions.
The “jazz” followed…
Could it have been that moving to a more outward extension of the arm and resulting wrist turn also contributed… ?

I would guess that it wasn't the neck design per se, but the shift from a vertical to a horizontal orientation. Frankly, despite all the ergonomic challenges of the double-bass, I still find it easier on the left hand and arm than the EB, due to the required rotations of the wrist and forearm.

Right hand technique is also quite different, whether you use the thumb as apparently was the original idea, or the fingers.

I have never read a convincing explanation of the name "Jazz Bass" since it seems the thing has generally not been preferred for jazz, but rather for rock. (Although at this late date people are playing anything in any style.)

From my admittedly limited experience, I find the Precision to be easier to play purely from the neck standpoint, but more difficult in terms of the wrist and forearm rotations. But of course this is a recent P bass, not one from 1951.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

I really don't see that. What I see, more often, is people overusing gear. You have an active bass that has EQ going to an EQ pedal then to an amp that has EQ.
You can get a great sound with a passive bass going straight to an amp with all the EQ set flat and only adjust that for the room.
Go ahead and flame me. I don't care. That's how I've been doing it for 60 years.

 

[marchone]

I really don't see that. What I see, more often, is people overusing gear. You have an active bass that has EQ going to an EQ pedal then to an amp that has EQ.
You can get a great sound with a passive bass going straight to an amp with all the EQ set flat and only adjust that for the room.
Go ahead and flame me. I don't care. That's how I've been doing it for 60 years.

That’s all true. Still, I’ll tweak EQ to get the sound in my head. Flat, gritty. It’s all right there on the amp panel.

I tried a few pedals: Sadowsky DI, Broughton Fliptop and Menatone Marshall Plexi stomp boxes. They all have dust on them now. I may look to revive a pedalboard after learning about the new Ampeg SGT-DI. SVT and B15 channels are right up my alley.

I have an Ampeg PF-50T and Mesa SW210 now. Clean, every bass sounds different.

Acquiring a Sadowsky made the Sad DI box redundant. So, I’m looking to change up my gig rig. Add a Mesa WD-800 (with HPF) and the SGT-DI. That will simplify everything. I’ll leave the PF-50T for the home studio.

 

[swink]

I have never read a convincing explanation of the name "Jazz Bass" since it seems the thing has generally not been preferred for jazz,

I hope you don't drive a Space wagon... It will never get you into space. What's in a name.... (W.S.)

 

[turf3]

I really don't see that. What I see, more often, is people overusing gear. You have an active bass that has EQ going to an EQ pedal then to an amp that has EQ.
You can get a great sound with a passive bass going straight to an amp with all the EQ set flat and only adjust that for the room.
Go ahead and flame me. I don't care. That's how I've been doing it for 60 years.

I play in one group with two acoustic guitarists, and me on double bass.

One guy shows up with all kinds of effects, his own little mini-mixer, a couple dozen cables, and EVERY SINGLE GIG something goes wrong. I have suggested that he just go acoustic guitar-pickup-preamp-PA and add to that a Telecaster direct to a little amp - two dead simple setups - but he persists in trying to make his acoustic guitar sound like 9 different things that no one can actually tell the difference between most of them. And EVERY SINGLE GIG something goes wrong. Plus the guaranteed dead air as he switches from one set of patches to the next.

On the other hand, I show up with my upright bass, my AI Contra amp, I plug the bass into the amp, play a few notes to tweak the EQ on the amp for the room, and I'm ready to play.

I'm just not into twiddling knobs for the sake of twiddling knobs for the sake of some subtle shade of difference in tone that no one but me would ever even hear. It's not that I'm "afraid", it's that I'm OLD. I've been working with electronic and mechanical equipment of all types for 50 years now and I've learned that any time you can TAKE COMPLEXITY OUT of a system, you will reap benefits in reliability, performance, and troubleshooting.

As Bill Kirchen has been quoted "If you can't do it with a Telecaster it doesn't need to be done."

 

[swink]

I've learned that any time you can TAKE COMPLEXITY OUT of a system, you will reap benefits in reliability, performance, and troubleshooting.

+100

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

I play in one group with two acoustic guitarists, and me on double bass.

One guy shows up with all kinds of effects, his own little mini-mixer, a couple dozen cables, and EVERY SINGLE GIG something goes wrong. I have suggested that he just go acoustic guitar-pickup-preamp-PA and add to that a Telecaster direct to a little amp - two dead simple setups - but he persists in trying to make his acoustic guitar sound like 9 different things that no one can actually tell the difference between most of them. And EVERY SINGLE GIG something goes wrong. Plus the guaranteed dead air as he switches from one set of patches to the next.

On the other hand, I show up with my upright bass, my AI Contra amp, I plug the bass into the amp, play a few notes to tweak the EQ on the amp for the room, and I'm ready to play.

I'm just not into twiddling knobs for the sake of twiddling knobs for the sake of some subtle shade of difference in tone that no one but me would ever even hear. It's not that I'm "afraid", it's that I'm OLD. I've been working with electronic and mechanical equipment of all types for 50 years now and I've learned that any time you can TAKE COMPLEXITY OUT of a system, you will reap benefits in reliability, performance, and troubleshooting.

As Bill Kirchen has been quoted "If you can't do it with a Telecaster it doesn't need to be done."

Amen!

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

That’s all true. Still, I’ll tweak EQ to get the sound in my head. Flat, gritty. It’s all right there on the amp panel.

I tried a few pedals: Sadowsky DI, Broughton Fliptop and Menatone Marshall Plexi stomp boxes. They all have dust on them now. I may look to revive a pedalboard after learning about the new Ampeg SGT-DI. SVT and B15 channels are right up my alley.

I have an Ampeg PF-50T and Mesa SW210 now. Clean, every bass sounds different.

Acquiring a Sadowsky made the Sad DI box redundant. So, I’m looking to change up my gig rig. Add a Mesa WD-800 (with HPF) and the SGT-DI. That will simplify everything. I’ll leave the PF-50T for the home studio.

I'm seriously considering an AGT-DI, but I wonder if running it through any bass amp with a preamp would add the amp's baked in tone? Seems the best setup would be running to just a power amp or would going through a amp's effects return would be better?
I like the idea if I can get a real SVT sound without the bank breaking expense of back breaking weight.

 

[marchone]

I'm seriously considering an AGT-DI, but I wonder if running it through any bass amp with a preamp would add the amp's baked in tone? Seems the best setup would be running to just a power amp or would going through a amp's effects return would be better?
I like the idea if I can get a real SVT sound without the bank breaking expense of back breaking weight.

There’s only one way to find out. As a DI into a PA it’s a no brainer but you raise a good question. How is it going to sound through different cabs? Say, a 115 vs a 210?