It's usually the singers I'm more concerned about. Too many are karaoke artists, the rarest few know anything about music.
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Why arent drummers considered musicians?
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My Jazz Prof. says the drummer needs to be the best MUSICIAN in the band.
I think its so because the drummer marks the end of every 4 measures, marks the ends of sections, and start of the form, plays along with the soloist, while also playing along with the bass player (me) and the piano player.
When a real drummer plays alone, if you really listen, you can hear music while he/she plays the drums.
I think its so because the drummer marks the end of every 4 measures, marks the ends of sections, and start of the form, plays along with the soloist, while also playing along with the bass player (me) and the piano player.
When a real drummer plays alone, if you really listen, you can hear music while he/she plays the drums.
Is a tympani a drum? Yes!
Is it tuned to a regulated pitch? Yes!
Are tympani played by percussionists? Yes!
Do percussionists play drums? Yes!
Do compositions commonly demand that the tuning of tympani change during their performance? Yes!
Do tympani often play melodic figures? Yes!
Do drummers in popular music bands sometimes play tympani? Yes!
Are drummers musicians? Yes! (Note, this may be stretching it for some, but that exception also applies to performers attempting to play many/any instruments.)
I think you lose.
iJazz
"Drummer are not musicians" I think the notion has been a part of the culture for many years at least here in america. I can't speak for anywhere else. I first heard the old joke back in 1986. "What do you call a person who hangs out with musicians?" I'm only 37. I'm sure there is someone on this board who can recall hearing it even further back. Regardless, I heard the joke and resented it, because I was a drummer, brand new to the club. But I wasn't a musician. Not really.
When I say that I mean it. I didn't know harmony. I knew rhythm. At times I even knew about dynamics and textures but the for the world of "notes", I was functionally illiterate.
Years later I would start to learn the bass and get an introduction to harmony. I took some college classes on it. I continued study and play bass working part time as a drummer and eventually as a bass player as well. I eventually became a pretty good bass player. I knew a lot of stuff. I could walk rhythm changes and all kinds of variations on the blues, and all kinds of other stuff that I though was important to be a good bass player. Even some of that crazy slap stuff. And I could even keep a simple ostinato all night if that was what was needed, or two beat, or whatever and even had halfway decent skills with a click. But I didn't know **** about melody. The concept of voice leading when constructing chords for comping behind a soloist was completely foreign to me. I always "knew" that you can use a tritone sub for any dominant chord but I didn't really "know it".
I suppose at some point in our progression we probably get enough skills together to be considered a musician by our peers and our audiences. I'm convinced that what I play most of the time sounds like music, sometimes not but the ratio is always getting more and more lopsided in favor of music all the time. The audience always seems to recognize it, they don't always know it but they feel it. I've learned to recognize disinterest in an audience by observing the different ways they don't listen to what is being played. I consider their interest important as my purpose in these endeavors is to affect them on a emotional and intellectual level as opposed to say, boring them to death.
I guess what I'm trying to say here to paraphrase the chef from that movie about that cooking ratt is that a musicians can be just about anybody with an instrument in their hands or their bodies, i.e. vocalists. But not everybody with an instrument is a musician. Its a journey people and it never stops. You keep learning. The trades even have names for stages in the progression. Apprentice, Journeyman, and Master. I think the criteria is that you are moving on the path.
Now having said all that before people jump to slander certain forms of music or musicians, i.e. "rap is not music" or "country is simple" or "jazz guys can't rock". Let's remember what Miles, who we can all agree was a musician, said.
“Good music is good no matter what kind of music it is.”
Considering that, I think that those who decide to become specialist of sorts on this journey, either through pursuing an instrument devoid of harmony, i.e. drums, or a specific form of music that ignores large chunks of the broad musical spectrum of ideas in favor of a restrictive stylistic norm(almost all genres of music), then your well probably needs to run a little deeper than most in those areas of specialization. B.B King comes to mind as a master musician who admittedly is "no good with chords". Another example I can think of is Dennis Chambers. I remember reading an interview in Modern Drummer years ago where he said he doesn't read music. That may have changed since then, but for the sake of argument lets say he still doesn't. I doubt there are many on this board who are capable of the intricate rhythmic gymnastics he can dish out and would get lost trading fours with him should he so chose not cater to your less developed sense of rhythm. Would you be justified in saying Dennis Chambers is not a musician? He's got what it takes to be a creative part of some amazing gigs because he's bringing some serious skills to the table. I think the most important skill in this craft is listening with our ears. His are obviously bigger than mine so I ain't gonna say **** about Dennis not being a musician. Mike Stern never called my ass for a gig.
So get on it people. Maybe one day we can all be musicians.
Mike
When I say that I mean it. I didn't know harmony. I knew rhythm. At times I even knew about dynamics and textures but the for the world of "notes", I was functionally illiterate.
Years later I would start to learn the bass and get an introduction to harmony. I took some college classes on it. I continued study and play bass working part time as a drummer and eventually as a bass player as well. I eventually became a pretty good bass player. I knew a lot of stuff. I could walk rhythm changes and all kinds of variations on the blues, and all kinds of other stuff that I though was important to be a good bass player. Even some of that crazy slap stuff. And I could even keep a simple ostinato all night if that was what was needed, or two beat, or whatever and even had halfway decent skills with a click. But I didn't know **** about melody. The concept of voice leading when constructing chords for comping behind a soloist was completely foreign to me. I always "knew" that you can use a tritone sub for any dominant chord but I didn't really "know it".
I suppose at some point in our progression we probably get enough skills together to be considered a musician by our peers and our audiences. I'm convinced that what I play most of the time sounds like music, sometimes not but the ratio is always getting more and more lopsided in favor of music all the time. The audience always seems to recognize it, they don't always know it but they feel it. I've learned to recognize disinterest in an audience by observing the different ways they don't listen to what is being played. I consider their interest important as my purpose in these endeavors is to affect them on a emotional and intellectual level as opposed to say, boring them to death.
I guess what I'm trying to say here to paraphrase the chef from that movie about that cooking ratt is that a musicians can be just about anybody with an instrument in their hands or their bodies, i.e. vocalists. But not everybody with an instrument is a musician. Its a journey people and it never stops. You keep learning. The trades even have names for stages in the progression. Apprentice, Journeyman, and Master. I think the criteria is that you are moving on the path.
Now having said all that before people jump to slander certain forms of music or musicians, i.e. "rap is not music" or "country is simple" or "jazz guys can't rock". Let's remember what Miles, who we can all agree was a musician, said.
“Good music is good no matter what kind of music it is.”
Considering that, I think that those who decide to become specialist of sorts on this journey, either through pursuing an instrument devoid of harmony, i.e. drums, or a specific form of music that ignores large chunks of the broad musical spectrum of ideas in favor of a restrictive stylistic norm(almost all genres of music), then your well probably needs to run a little deeper than most in those areas of specialization. B.B King comes to mind as a master musician who admittedly is "no good with chords". Another example I can think of is Dennis Chambers. I remember reading an interview in Modern Drummer years ago where he said he doesn't read music. That may have changed since then, but for the sake of argument lets say he still doesn't. I doubt there are many on this board who are capable of the intricate rhythmic gymnastics he can dish out and would get lost trading fours with him should he so chose not cater to your less developed sense of rhythm. Would you be justified in saying Dennis Chambers is not a musician? He's got what it takes to be a creative part of some amazing gigs because he's bringing some serious skills to the table. I think the most important skill in this craft is listening with our ears. His are obviously bigger than mine so I ain't gonna say **** about Dennis not being a musician. Mike Stern never called my ass for a gig.
So get on it people. Maybe one day we can all be musicians.
Mike
sonic assassin said:
If you think that orchestral percussionists do not play "musical notes," you are seriously misinformed.
In my experience, its because drummers (not all..just the ones i know) are obnoxious, they just hit things in a random pattern throwing a crash in there, a double bass in there...and hey presto a metal beat. The old drummer from my band was the reason i left, thought it was his band and he could chop and change the set when he wanted, and all used was a Joey Jordison solo, and said he could play. So in some cases....no, drummers aren't musicians.
Theres a japanese drummer, I think his name is Akira Jimbo and he does themes from say mission impossible and james bond with a normal drum kit and some pre programmed electric pads, really good stuff!
Akira Jimbo : James Bond & Mission Impossible Drum Solo - YouTube
So in essence he is a musician!
Plus I think good drummers are musicians
Akira Jimbo : James Bond & Mission Impossible Drum Solo - YouTube
So in essence he is a musician!
Plus I think good drummers are musicians
It's true that not all drummers are musicians, but this also applies to bass players, singers, guitarists, etc. To be honest with you I think it's easier to take someone off the street, strap a bass on them, and have a workable "bass player" for some gigs than to do the same with a drummer. This is not to say that bass<drums, but IMO if anybody has to face the "not real musicians" bias, it's usually us.
Dennis Wilson is a much rarer creature than Sid Vicious.
It's not just drummers. There a a lot of guitar players (and bass players) who are like parrots spewing out licks, riffs, and cliche after cliche without having any idea about music.
Throwing a log over a creek does not make you a bridge builder.
Throwing a log over a creek does not make you a bridge builder.
This whole notion of a drummer not being a musicians reminds me of the old joke:
Q: What do you call a guy who hangs out with musicians?
A: A drummer.
This is of course simply a joke.
A drummer who only plays bass on 1, snare on 2, and 8th notes on the high-hat is no different than a guitarist who only plays power chords or a bassists who only plays root notes. Moreover, sometimes that is all the song needs.
At the end of the day it's not what you play it is how you play it.
Max Roach-Hi Hat - YouTube
Q: What do you call a guy who hangs out with musicians?
A: A drummer.
This is of course simply a joke.
A drummer who only plays bass on 1, snare on 2, and 8th notes on the high-hat is no different than a guitarist who only plays power chords or a bassists who only plays root notes. Moreover, sometimes that is all the song needs.
At the end of the day it's not what you play it is how you play it.
Max Roach-Hi Hat - YouTube
same thing can be said of many guitarists and bassists.
and again, the same thing can be said of many guitarists and bassists.
so is a bassist that only plays quarter notes on the root not a musician either?
this sure is some elitist crap thinking going on here.
In truth, I've found the hardest position in a band to get "right" is the drummer. I'll grant you the position tends to attract a certain element, but that's not the point really. The drummer (at least in Rock) is every bit as important and critical to success (and one could argue MORESO) as any other.
I think what the OP senses is the way we love to complain when we don't have a GOOD drummer
I sound three or four times better when playing with a drummer who is playing with me rather than playing behind me. So I don't minimize their importance even a little bit.
I think that drum machines are to blame for the state of drumming today. A lot of people, when drum machines came around, decided they could make more money and/or get more gigs by ditching their drummer... we are living with that legacy today. It's not that I don't appreciate what drum machines can do, but it was a crappy way to treat our brother (and sister) drummers.
I think what the OP senses is the way we love to complain when we don't have a GOOD drummer
I sound three or four times better when playing with a drummer who is playing with me rather than playing behind me. So I don't minimize their importance even a little bit. I think that drum machines are to blame for the state of drumming today. A lot of people, when drum machines came around, decided they could make more money and/or get more gigs by ditching their drummer... we are living with that legacy today. It's not that I don't appreciate what drum machines can do, but it was a crappy way to treat our brother (and sister) drummers.
