Why did Fender fail to capture the 5 String market?

[SgtHulka]

I have read some stories about Fender and the first 5-string bass. It had only 15 frets and a high C...and wasn't accepted by any players then in 1965...

But what happened after that? There was no other Powerhouse in the game like Fender. We know that 10 years later Jimmy Johnson worked with Alembic to create one of the first five strings with a low B, a bass we now consider to be the template based on the modern 5-string. For a full 10 years or more Fender gave up on the concept?

My question is this... why wasn't Fender able to establish the same powerful foothold in the 5-string market as they did with the P bass and Jazz Bass? Were they that bad? My thinking leads me to believe that a 5-string was considered a very heavily specialized instrument at the time and not as ubiquitous as it is today.

To an extent even in 2020, I still feel that is true and although Fender today makes great 5 string basses, they still pale in comparison to the P and Jazz 4-string dominance of yesteryear and today.

Since the modern 5 string became a thing, why have Fenders become a secondary 5 string option to other brands? Were they unable to produce a quality instrument in the early years? Did other brands simply establish themselves before Fender for 5 string basses?

I'm sure they captured a decent portion of the market at one point or another but for a company as dominant as Fender was, their 5-string business seems like an overall failure. JMHO.

 

[Garret Graves]

That first 5 failed to take off- James Jamerson did use it in the studio a few times. It’s a good question- but that particular bass was odd

 

[Jim Carr]

...My question is this... why wasn't Fender able to establish the same powerful foothold in the 5-string market as they did with the P bass and Jazz Bass?...

...why have Fenders become a secondary 5 string option to other brands? Were they unable to produce a quality instrument in the early years? Did other brands simply establish themselves before Fender for 5 string basses?...

Design failure? The Fender 5-strings that appeared in the late 90's/early 2000's were a failure, IMHO. Very floppy B strings and lots of weird dead spots.

In the words of bass guru Ed Cannacci (Gelb Music, Redwood City, CA), "The B strings on Fender 5-strings from the late 90's to 2001 or so, just didn't work."

In-line 5-string head stock is the giveaway:

 

[80jazz]

As someone who has had a Fender 5 string for 20+ years, I am with Jim on this one. It has a floppy B that discourages me from getting another Fender 5-string. Also, the nut width is wider than I like.

My next 5 string will be either a Cort or MM.

 

[5StringBlues]

Floppy B string? Never noticed.

But Fender did themselves no favors when they stopped making the Roscoe Beck 5'r.

 

[Mastodon2]

I suppose aside the 5 string never really took off because a huge part of Fenders market are very conservative. Innovation and forward thinking is not what their customers want - this is a story that has repeated itself many times in the company's history.

 

[mdogs]

Floppy B string? Never noticed.



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But Fender did themselves no favors when they stopped making the Roscoe Beck 5'r.

My understanding is that Fender did not have an option. They could no longer get the bridge for the 5 and Roscoe wouldn’t approve an alternate design. So they stopped making them.

 

[LBS-bass]

I think perhaps they overestimated the appeal of the high C with that initial offering and didn't realize that players would appreciate extended low range. The ability to play more music across the neck was only one selling point and I'm guessing few at the time really cared. With modern instruments, we get the extended lows and the same across the neck flexibility. Fender didn't come out of the chute with that kind of instrument first, and their initial offerings once they did were weak on the B string, as others have pointed out.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

I have read some stories about Fender and the first 5-string bass. It had only 15 frets and a high C...and wasn't accepted by any players then in 1965...

But what happened after that? There was no other Powerhouse in the game like Fender. We know that 10 years later Jimmy Johnson worked with Alembic to create one of the first five strings with a low B, a bass we now consider to be the template based on the modern 5-string. For a full 10 years or more Fender gave up on the concept?

My question is this... why wasn't Fender able to establish the same powerful foothold in the 5-string market as they did with the P bass and Jazz Bass? Were they that bad? My thinking leads me to believe that a 5-string was considered a very heavily specialized instrument at the time and not as ubiquitous as it is today.

To an extent even in 2020, I still feel that is true and although Fender today makes great 5 string basses, they still pale in comparison to the P and Jazz 4-string dominance of yesteryear and today.

Since the modern 5 string became a thing, why have Fenders become a secondary 5 string option to other brands? Were they unable to produce a quality instrument in the early years? Did other brands simply establish themselves before Fender for 5 string basses?

I'm sure they captured a decent portion of the market at one point or another but for a company as dominant as Fender was, their 5-string business seems like an overall failure. JMHO.

The whole idea behind the 15 fret Fender V was to aid readers in the studio. The idea was that more high notes would be in lower positions with a high C. Folks who already knew their way around a fretboard saw no need to change.

Don’t underestimate Fender’s impact on the five string bass market. Fender is marketing at least four Fender Jazzes and a Precision with five strings, and at least two Squiers with five strings. In the world beyond Talk Bass boutique Jazz fans, five string Fenders are seen as a very viable option.

 

[chilliwilli]

Fender didn't start making good five strings till maybe 2005-2006 when they started using the 4+1 headstock. There were better options for 1,000 bucks when they started out with the five in line headstock.

 

[JTE]

Like making a fretless Jazz Bass, Fender didn't even come to the modern 5-string market until late. Peavey and Music Man had good 5-string basses at prices affordable to many working bassists a long time before FMIC did. And the early Fender low-B basses weren't very good.

 

[JW56789]

The 60's five-string was a blind alley they went down, but the six-string baritone was a minor success whose interest went up a lot with the advent of Jack Bruce playing one in the massively popular Cream. It's hung around in various guises thru the years, but is indeed a far different beast from the currently popular 6-strings that are common now in full 34" scale.

Fender is blessed and cursed with their 'legacy' instruments, which doesn't really include 5-strings in their classic Tele, Strat, PBass, Jazz rotation. 5-string Jazzes have been far more successful in fives as single coils with their narrow aperture tend to work better in fives IF you're not going to thoroughly do your homework: This is why the Dimensions (really a nod to Leo's later success with the MusicMan Stingrays) was not the success that Stingrays enjoy. It's too big a departure from those legacy themes, and the tone was not quite as good as a Stingray, though they were plenty good-enough axes. They were just not 'Fender' enough.

The closest they came were the Roscoe Beck Fives, the best five-string they ever built: Modern or vintage tone, passive (with the brilliant pickups and switching system by the late Bill Lawrence), and it certainly said 'Fender' in spades when you looked at it. The only real problem was that it was a big axe, a little too big for some, but what a babe of an axe . . . . . . that they discontinued, like the 24-fret Jazz, the PBass Lyte, and more.

A great study in business school (and a zillion dollar bonanza for someone who could establish it) would be how businesses heavily leveraged in legacy products (think Harley-Davidson, Coca Cola, Kodak, Xerox, and the like) find a way to retain market share and steadily move to new products. I can think of Porsche (SUV's now pay for 911 and Boxster lines as niche products, geez . . . . . ) and Fujifilm (thriving, while the inventor of digital photography, Kodak, crashed; Fuji made the jump to digital with the brilliant X cameras and leveraged their imaging into medical scanning and their formerly film chemical business into health products, makeup, and organic chemistry products). Fender and their owners need to blue sky these examples, Gibson as well.

 

[5StringBlues]

Fender didn't start making good five strings till maybe 2005-2006 when they started using the 4+1 headstock. There were better options for 1,000 bucks when they started out with the five in line headstock.

Except the Roscoe Beck, which has the 4+1.

 

[RhynoRock]

I blame Ibanez & the nu-metal sub genre for that.

Everyone jumped at Ibanez & Warwick for the 5 strings, especially in the 90s when down-tuning really hit it's stride with nu-metal. Obviously people using alternate tunings is nothing new, but I think with nu-metal becoming absurdly (and disgustingly, in retrospect) popular in the 90s with bands like Korn & Deftones for example, players who wouldn't bother with products from Fender & Gibson looked to their favorite manufacturers to fulfill their needs, everyone was after 5-string basses & 7-string guitars. I recall when I was a teenager seeing more ads for Ibanez & Warwick showcasing 5-strings than anyone else, at the time anyway. Classic designs didn't really fit with that genre, the Ibanez Soundgear had a huge impact. It wasn't the first by any stretch, but it became the most popular. Every band I watched back then, big or small, used a Soundgear 5-string, or to a lesser extent, Warwick.

EDIT: The above is strictly my observation

Side note, I can say my Player Series 5 string Jazz has a very nice B-string, even tuning down a half step.

 

[nixdad]

The 5-string market exploded in the mid-80's after the New Wave trend a few years earlier when keyboards were used instead of bass. Boutique builders like Tobias, Pedulla, Fodera, Ken Smith and dozens of others filled the void.

IMO, MusicMan was the first "standard" brand to really step up (1987) and create a solid, affordable 5 (either $895 or $995 retail when introduced.) Solid B string, excellent neck width at the nut and where the fretboard met the body. We sold lots of all of these basses, but the MM5 is something we typically could not keep in stock.

It was a great time for bassists across the board.

 

[SleepyShark]

I think this boils down to the fact that 5-String players are more likely the type to want a modern looking bass with a bunch of electronic options. Something that strays from the "tradition" of the Fender look and sound. After all, if they had an interest in that, they'd probably just play a P or a J.

Yeah, I know a decent amount of people here play a Fender fiver. But I believe they're in the minority.

 

[Jazz Ad]

Yeah the Roscoe Beck was their best 5 string achievement

 

[eastcoasteddie]

...popular in the 90s with bands like Korn & Deftones for example, players who wouldn't bother with products from Fender & Gibson ...

Chi Cheng of Deftones used P-basses and a Roscoe Beck.
Current Deftones bassist Sergio Vega uses the Fender Jaguar bass and standard passive Jazz basses...

 

[Thumper]

Don't underestimate the Fender Pbass 5, I had one (circa 2010) and it was a very good 5er with a solid B, no discernible dead spots, and decent weight at 9.1 lbs.

I wanted a Roscoe Beck 5 but never found a light one when I was looking.

 

[Afc70]

I suppose aside the 5 string never really took off because a huge part of Fenders market are very conservative. Innovation and forward thinking is not what their customers want - this is a story that has repeated itself many times in the company's history.

I think you hit the nail on the head- when the 5’s started really getting more popular in the mid- late 80’s, the players who were using them seemed gravitated towards more non- traditional style basses, as a departure from the traditional 4 string fender P’s & jazzes. As a footnote- I remember the 80’s being an innovative time bass-wise, even in the 4 string realm, as folks like Kubicki & Steinberger really started getting attention with “non traditional” style basses. Really cool points here, that’d I’d never considered.