Why did Fender fail to capture the 5 String market?

[dbsfgyd1]

Design failure? The Fender 5-strings that appeared in the late 90's/early 2000's were a failure, IMHO. Very floppy B strings and lots of weird dead spots.

In the words of bass guru Ed Cannacci (Gelb Music, Redwood City, CA), "The B strings on Fender 5-strings from the late 90's to 2001 or so, just didn't work."

In-line 5-string head stock is the giveaway:

View attachment 3692669

My son had an American Jazz 5 string cir 2001. No dead spots or floppy B Strings. Used GHS bass boomers on it, I believe a .125 gauge B. What I did notice was a very slight tonal characteristic change going from the E to the B string when played in the ensemble, one would never notice it.

As for the OP, I’ll use an analogy. Back in the 60s Volkswagen beetles were extremely popular, but only a few were much interested in the Fastback or Squareback. They were great cars, much better and more practical than the venerable beetle, but They didn’t sell any where near as many as it wasn’t what Volkswagon was known for.

To this day, when I think of a Fender bass, I think of the 4 string JB, PB, and the PJ. The 5er just seams odd.

 

[SgtHulka]

Design failure? The Fender 5-strings that appeared in the late 90's/early 2000's were a failure, IMHO. Very floppy B strings and lots of weird dead spots.

In the words of bass guru Ed Cannacci (Gelb Music, Redwood City, CA), "The B strings on Fender 5-strings from the late 90's to 2001 or so, just didn't work."

In-line 5-string head stock is the giveaway:

View attachment 3692669

Why does an inline headstock create a floppy B string?

 

[JW56789]

So Ernie Ball is #1?

I owned the first-gen BB5000 (as well as the follow on BB5000A and the 5000A2, a completely different axe . . . )
and it was essentially a BB3000 subdivided for five strings instead of four, a five-string bridge and a marginally restyled head to accommodate the 5th tuning key. VERY tight string spacing, similar to the crowded feel at the nut on a Jazz or Ric with one more string in the mix. Wonderful axe, but like all BB distribution in the 80's, virtually impossible to get one unless you busted into the container on the dock at Long Beach, so in a practical sense they were almost as rare as Alembic fives.

Dr. C and I agree that the Stingray Five was the first widely available five-string for everyman. EB did a masterful job of expanding the already ragingly popular Stingray with the five-wide pickup and bridge, the neck was of course wider but they got that just right, and on and on, it became the Ford Pickup of five-string basses: Not too expensive, not too heavy, not too big a neck/fingerboard, it . . . . just . . . . worked, with virtually no concessions from the owner aside from wrapping your head around an extra string. Utterly brilliant, the crew that accomplished this, it was so easy to own and play, it was like 'Ma, Look ! I'm five-stringin ! !'.

You never even hear someone complain about the 'floppy B' on them. A brilliant, brilliant enhancement of an already landmark design that would have been oh so easy to get VERY wrong . . . . . if I ever get the budget, I'll be on a StingRay Five in the original single pickup layout in the neckthru version like white on rice . . . .

 

[bucephylus]

Why does an inline headstock create a floppy B string?

Excellent Q!

TBH, I don’t think it is the in line tuner config which creates the issue. For example, Jimmy Coppollo’s Basses are 5 in line; and no one complains about them.

I believe the actual issue is the break angle over the nut. Fender’s 4 strings have a very shallow break angle, due to the way the headstock is cut. Works on the 4 mostly with string retainers, but failed when they just added the B with negligible product development. When they went to the 4+1 in mid-2000’s, they also increased the drop to the headstock. The latter change was less obvious, but more important, as it increased the break angle at the nut, thus keeping the string more well seated. The more obvious tuner configuration change got the credit, but that’s a fallacy.

 

[waynobass]

MusicMan was the first "standard" brand to really step up (1987) and create a solid, affordable 5 (either $895 or $995 retail when introduced.) Solid B string, excellent neck width at the nut and where the fretboard met the body. We sold lots of all of these basses, but the MM5 is something we typically could not keep in stock.

Because Music Man whipped Fender's butt. They still do.

 

[bucephylus]

I owned the first-gen BB5000 (as well as the follow on BB5000A and the 5000A2, a completely different axe . . . )
and it was essentially a BB3000 subdivided for five strings instead of four, a five-string bridge and a marginally restyled head to accommodate the 5th tuning key. VERY tight string spacing, similar to the crowded feel at the nut on a Jazz or Ric with one more string in the mix. Wonderful axe, but like all BB distribution in the 80's, virtually impossible to get one unless you busted into the container on the dock at Long Beach, so in a practical sense they were almost as rare as Alembic fives.

Dr. C and I agree that the Stingray Five was the first widely available five-string for everyman. EB did a masterful job of expanding the already ragingly popular Stingray with the five-wide pickup and bridge, the neck was of course wider but they got that just right, and on and on, it became the Ford Pickup of five-string basses: Not too expensive, not too heavy, not too big a neck/fingerboard, it . . . . just . . . . worked, with virtually no concessions from the owner aside from wrapping your head around an extra string. Utterly brilliant, the crew that accomplished this, it was so easy to own and play, it was like 'Ma, Look ! I'm five-stringin ! !'.

You never even hear someone complain about the 'floppy B' on them. A brilliant, brilliant enhancement of an already landmark design that would have been oh so easy to get VERY wrong . . . . . if I ever get the budget, I'll be on a StingRay Five in the original single pickup version in the neckthru version like white on rice . . . .

SR5’s are excellent; but, so is brown rice.

 

[Nephilymbass]

I have read some stories about Fender and the first 5-string bass. It had only 15 frets and a high C...and wasn't accepted by any players then in 1965...

But what happened after that? There was no other Powerhouse in the game like Fender. We know that 10 years later Jimmy Johnson worked with Alembic to create one of the first five strings with a low B, a bass we now consider to be the template based on the modern 5-string. For a full 10 years or more Fender gave up on the concept?

My question is this... why wasn't Fender able to establish the same powerful foothold in the 5-string market as they did with the P bass and Jazz Bass? Were they that bad? My thinking leads me to believe that a 5-string was considered a very heavily specialized instrument at the time and not as ubiquitous as it is today.

To an extent even in 2020, I still feel that is true and although Fender today makes great 5 string basses, they still pale in comparison to the P and Jazz 4-string dominance of yesteryear and today.

Since the modern 5 string became a thing, why have Fenders become a secondary 5 string option to other brands? Were they unable to produce a quality instrument in the early years? Did other brands simply establish themselves before Fender for 5 string basses?

I'm sure they captured a decent portion of the market at one point or another but for a company as dominant as Fender was, their 5-string business seems like an overall failure. JMHO.

I have a jazz 5er as a backup. It’s decent for what I paid and it looks cool.

I think one reason fender has failed to dominate the 5 string market is they didn’t really put much thought into their 5 strings. for example I play my Dingwall and i feel like it was specifically designed to be a 5 string where on the jazz it feels like the low B string and neck design were more of an after thought.

I also think a lot of it is the die hard fender fanboys don’t like 5 string fenders because Leo didn’t design a normal 5 string with a low B until much later when he was with G&L. When most people buy a fender they want Leo’s designs. But he didn’t have anything to do with the modern beadg normal scale fender 5 strings. So 5 string fenders are sort of the red headed step child of fender

I think another thing is they’ve never really pushed 5 string p basses very well. I mean they just finally made an American p 5 a couple years back, they’ve already discontinued the Squier p5 and people still dig around online for used ones, and they still don’t have a Mexican p5 which is shocking because I assume they sell a lot of the Mexican line basses as thats mostly what I see out in the wild. So a lot of people who want a 5 string p have gone elsewhere.

 

[pappabass]

I beg to differ....View attachment 3692919

Looks like a humbucker pick up to me....

 

[Cardsfan_69]

I had a Fender Jazz Plus 5 in the early 90's and it was a beautiful bass but the B string was floppy, dull and generally awful. There were definitely dead spots up and down the neck.
That being said, I have a 2009 or 2010 Fender American Deluxe Jazz 5 that I traded an SR5 for and I absolutely love it. No matter how long it took them to get it right, it seems right now.

 

[Adam Wright]

I see Fender 5 strings all the time.

 

[nixdad]

I terms of finding mass acceptance, yes. Think about how long Tony Levin has been using that orange SR5.

It’s actually peach - it was one of their limited edition custom colors at the time.

 

[Leonid Nidis]

I suppose aside the 5 string never really took off because a huge part of Fenders market are very conservative. Innovation and forward thinking is not what their customers want - this is a story that has repeated itself many times in the company's history.

Thats it.
Still IMO it would make more sense to make an elite/ultra 5 string P bass than a passive pro.

 

[clockworkcorpse]

I don't own any fives anymore, but I do pick them up occasionally while checking things out. I plugged in an american professional jazz 5 a few weeks back, put my hands across the strings and was startled. I had to flip it around and look for myself. I can't believe how close the strings are to the sides of the neck.

I owned an american standard P5 for a bit, and could never get the B string to feel and sound right.

The oldest production 5 string I owned was a 1985 rb885 Ibanez roadstar 2. That was a pretty nice bass, and I'd heard it was the first production five string, but I think I read that on the internet.

Edit: added model number of ibby

 

[Ggaa]

Fender 5ers necks seem a little fatter than they need to be, but I'm sure they work fine for others...

 

[Jim Carr]

Why does an inline headstock create a floppy B string?

It was not the cause, as far as I know, it just the design from that period.

 

[BEADG63]

I'm fortunate that my inline 5 Jazz Bass from '99 doesn't give me any issues other than the dead-ish Eb on the G string. The B is just fine when using strings with a little more tension, such as DR Legends. Rotosound tapewounds work, too...this one just happens to be converted to fretless as well.

 

[Jim Carr]

Floppy B string? Never noticed...

But Fender did themselves no favors when they stopped making the Roscoe Beck 5'r.

It was the earlier in-line head stock design that seemed to have that problem.

 

[Jim Carr]

My son had an American Jazz 5 string cir 2001. No dead spots or floppy B Strings. Used GHS bass boomers on it, I believe a .125 gauge B. What I did notice was a very slight tonal characteristic change going from the E to the B string when played in the ensemble, one would never notice it...

Wondering if the headstock on your son's 50string Jazz was 4+1 or in-line 5?

 

[frankie5string]

I remember the Fender 5s as recently as the early 90s still being extremely heavy and unwieldy - especially the necks which had a massive C shape. Ibanez came out with a 5-string Soundgear for about the same price and they were often 3/4 the weight (or even lighter) and has much thinner, more manageable necks. The 5-string BB basses felt petit in comparison.

Then Fender started with the whole AVRI thing and didn't really do much to change their bloated 5s until the Roscoe Beck bass came out. I remember it being much nicer - but I didn't have the cash to buy one. That Gotoh bridge was a huge improvement over the crap Fender put on the earlier 5s.

 

[clockworkcorpse]

Oh, one more thing to share... I don't like the 4+1 look... looks like a fifth tuner was just added. 3+1 looks fine, as does 2+2, 3+2, 2+3 etc...