Why did Fender fail to capture the 5 String market?

[mcrawfordmusic]

Design failure? The Fender 5-strings that appeared in the late 90's/early 2000's were a failure, IMHO. Very floppy B strings and lots of weird dead spots.

In the words of bass guru Ed Cannacci (Gelb Music, Redwood City, CA), "The B strings on Fender 5-strings from the late 90's to 2001 or so, just didn't work."

In-line 5-string head stock is the giveaway:

View attachment 3692669

I’m pretty sure Sharay Reed played one of these, didn’t he?

 

[jmlee]

I had a Fender Jazz Plus 5 in the early 90's and it was a beautiful bass but the B string was floppy, dull and generally awful. There were definitely dead spots up and down the neck.

Mine was actually pretty good, strung with slightly heavier rounds—I forget what just now. B was OK (not great, but I've had worse) and no dead spots that I could identify. Pretty thing.

 

[cdef]

I’m pretty sure Sharay Reed played one of these, didn’t he?

Yes, and to great effect:

 

[mcrawfordmusic]

Yes, and to great effect:

Yep, that’s the vid I was thinking of.

This is what my mind goes to when I hear “Fender 5 string” haha

 

[Dr. Love]

Because every time Fender does something new everyone hates it, complains about the fact that they changed from the original designs, then Fender discontinues the new thing because sales are terrible. Just my theory.

 

[MDBass]

I have read some stories about Fender and the first 5-string bass. It had only 15 frets and a high C...and wasn't accepted by any players then in 1965...

But what happened after that? There was no other Powerhouse in the game like Fender. We know that 10 years later Jimmy Johnson worked with Alembic to create one of the first five strings with a low B, a bass we now consider to be the template based on the modern 5-string. For a full 10 years or more Fender gave up on the concept?

My question is this... why wasn't Fender able to establish the same powerful foothold in the 5-string market as they did with the P bass and Jazz Bass? Were they that bad? My thinking leads me to believe that a 5-string was considered a very heavily specialized instrument at the time and not as ubiquitous as it is today.

To an extent even in 2020, I still feel that is true and although Fender today makes great 5 string basses, they still pale in comparison to the P and Jazz 4-string dominance of yesteryear and today.

Since the modern 5 string became a thing, why have Fenders become a secondary 5 string option to other brands? Were they unable to produce a quality instrument in the early years? Did other brands simply establish themselves before Fender for 5 string basses?

I'm sure they captured a decent portion of the market at one point or another but for a company as dominant as Fender was, their 5-string business seems like an overall failure. JMHO.

Simple: failure to innovate.

The P and J basses they built their brand on were massive market innovations: they did no such such thing in the 5 string market.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Wondering if the headstock on your son's 50string Jazz was 4+1 or in-line 5?

In line five just like the one pictured.

 

[nixdad]

I think the first production BEADG five was the Yamaha BB5000, but the first iteration had ridiculously tight string spacing. The production five to really hit the mark was the Stingray 5.

+1. This is dead nuts accurate on both points.
Narrow string spacing (and floppy B strings) were the downfall of most early 5-strings from most manufacturers. Most rushed their designs to the market (including Fender) and thus, failed to deliver what bass players wanted.

Although not widely known at the time (mid/late 80’s,) Bill Merchant in NYC was making a bolt-on 5 with a P-Bass body and an extra wide neck with Bartolini Jazz Bass pickups (I believe it was $1,200.) However, this was more of a “parts” bass. As soon as MusicMan launched the StingRay 5, it was game over - less expensive, active electronics, solid B, excellent neck & much more slick and finished.

Another affordable solid entry later in ‘95 was the Hamer Cruise Bass 5. Solid B, String spacing matched the MM5 and it featured an asymmetrical neck shape (ala Mike Tobias.) This was the same year Fender launched thei new Jazz Basses, but they fell short.
BTW, I love Fender Basses and am not a hater - I’m just stating facts regarding what was happening at the time.

 

[retslock]

I had an American Deluxe Precision. It sounded great but the string spacing was too wide for me. The neck was way too wide so I sold it. I bought a Cort that had similar spacing to a Stingray I believe - around 16.5-17mm. It suited me way better and I’ve since had a custom bass made with an Allparts neck with that spacing. I’m very happy with it. My Ibanez also has narrow spacing. If Fender made a narrower spaced 5 string P I would be onto to it.

 

[jbhaugh]

These new Ultra 5s with the wrong bridge aren't helping things for them.

 

[220_Hz]

I have read some stories about Fender and the first 5-string bass. It had only 15 frets and a high C...and wasn't accepted by any players then in 1965...

But what happened after that? There was no other Powerhouse in the game like Fender. We know that 10 years later Jimmy Johnson worked with Alembic to create one of the first five strings with a low B, a bass we now consider to be the template based on the modern 5-string. For a full 10 years or more Fender gave up on the concept?

My question is this... why wasn't Fender able to establish the same powerful foothold in the 5-string market as they did with the P bass and Jazz Bass? Were they that bad? My thinking leads me to believe that a 5-string was considered a very heavily specialized instrument at the time and not as ubiquitous as it is today.

To an extent even in 2020, I still feel that is true and although Fender today makes great 5 string basses, they still pale in comparison to the P and Jazz 4-string dominance of yesteryear and today.

Since the modern 5 string became a thing, why have Fenders become a secondary 5 string option to other brands? Were they unable to produce a quality instrument in the early years? Did other brands simply establish themselves before Fender for 5 string basses?

I'm sure they captured a decent portion of the market at one point or another but for a company as dominant as Fender was, their 5-string business seems like an overall failure. JMHO.

My first bass was a 2004/5 Fender Dimension V that looked like some sort of Ibanez creation. Had an ibby style headstock too! It was active and heavy, the neck was 2” wide at the 12th fret, and the B string was floppy as all get out! I see why I replaced that one, but I still get intrigued by a fiver every so often! I believe Fender just wasn’t able to make a good enough product at the beginning of the five string craze so they got pushed aside

 

[Jim Carr]

I’m pretty sure Sharay Reed played one of these, didn’t he?

Can't say.

 

[SgtHulka]

These new Ultra 5s with the wrong bridge aren't helping things for them.

I don't love the looks but what's wrong with them from a functional perspective?

 

[bubba-b]

from my point of view, fender didn't have much of a 5-string presence when i started in the 80's.

it was around '83 when i saw the nathan east ads pop up for strings (d'addario i think). he was posing with his white yamaha bb5000 and i remember thinking how cool that was to see a fiver. it was a slow burn but started to see other fivers (non-fender again) start to pop up mid-80's. when i got to m.i. in hollywood a few years later, mike tobias still had his shop on cahuenga and was selling his basses to teachers and students hand over fist and most were playing fivers. so seeing every other bass player at school playing a tobias fiver was 'the norm' then.

early 90's saw 35" really come into play. bumped into my first modulus q5 and never looked back.

in my opinion, the whole time, it seems like fender treated a fiver like an afterthought and not something to expand. they always had multiple lines of four string basses (aerodyne, jaguar, musicmaster, mustang, etc.) but their fivers were "add a fifth string to a p-bass or jazz". the roscoe beck line was a step in the right direction but i never saw one locally so never got to see how it played.

besides, i figure with builders like sadowsky, lull, g. gould and others taking the standards and subtly expanding and excelling at their models that fender can stay strong and continue its strength in the four-string market.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

I don't love the looks but what's wrong with them from a functional perspective?

View attachment 3693002

A lot of folks say the spacing of the bridge is too wide for the neck.

 

[chris_b]

Yeah the Roscoe Beck was their best 5 string achievement

I'd say it was Roscoe Beck's finest achievement. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I read that Roscoe Beck gave Fender a hard time and made them make the bass the way he wanted, rather than the way they wanted!

 

[Jim Carr]

...not widely known at the time (mid/late 80’s,) Bill Merchant in NYC was making a bolt-on 5 with a P-Bass body and an extra wide neck with Bartolini Jazz Bass pickups (I believe it was $1,200.) However, this was more of a “parts” bass. As soon as MusicMan launched the StingRay 5, it was game over...

...later in ‘95 was the Hamer Cruise Bass 5...This was the same year Fender launched their new Jazz Basses, but they fell short. BTW, I love Fender Basses and am not a hater - I’m just stating facts regarding what was happening at the time.

Bill is one awesome luthier, too. He saved my 170 year-old upright when it started to cave-in thanks to a poorly done "re-graduation" (don't ask) of the top plate. Welcome to Merchant Bass

I, too, am no hater of Fenders, and I have about seven or so of them! Never could warm up to 90's Fender 5-strings.

 

[bassballs27]

I have read some stories about Fender and the first 5-string bass. It had only 15 frets and a high C...and wasn't accepted by any players then in 1965...

But what happened after that? There was no other Powerhouse in the game like Fender. We know that 10 years later Jimmy Johnson worked with Alembic to create one of the first five strings with a low B, a bass we now consider to be the template based on the modern 5-string. For a full 10 years or more Fender gave up on the concept?

My question is this... why wasn't Fender able to establish the same powerful foothold in the 5-string market as they did with the P bass and Jazz Bass? Were they that bad? My thinking leads me to believe that a 5-string was considered a very heavily specialized instrument at the time and not as ubiquitous as it is today.

To an extent even in 2020, I still feel that is true and although Fender today makes great 5 string basses, they still pale in comparison to the P and Jazz 4-string dominance of yesteryear and today.

Since the modern 5 string became a thing, why have Fenders become a secondary 5 string option to other brands? Were they unable to produce a quality instrument in the early years? Did other brands simply establish themselves before Fender for 5 string basses?

I'm sure they captured a decent portion of the market at one point or another but for a company as dominant as Fender was, their 5-string business seems like an overall failure. JMHO.

Was a low B string really available back then? I’m asking because I really don’t know and didn’t live in the 1960s or the 1970s for that matter.

From my experience, I know Carl Thompson helped to perfect the first 6 string. He’s in his 80s right now and still building, so I bet he’d know the real answer. He was also building in the 70s at the same time as Alembic. Fodera came on the scene in 1983, so that means Ken Smith has been around longer as Vinny worked with Ken.
I know George Furlanetto of F bass was around in the late 1970s too...so was Wal. There was a big boom happening in the late 70s / early 80s to design the right 5 strings. I believe the first Wal MK2 was created in 1986 or slightly earlier. Can we blame grunge and drop D tuning of the 90s for the rise of the 5 string. You can still do that on a 4 though! Lol!

Just like anything, certain things take time. Pickup trucks have been the most built vehicle on the planet. I believe it’s the Ford F150. Surprised? Not really, loads of businesses use them and so does many private people. 4 strings are and still are on top for the most part. If you do a search in the TB classifieds today, there are 4,343 ads dedicated to 4 strings, 3,327 for 5s, and just 468 ads for 6 strings!!! So, what’s become more common recently? These are every ad ever made since TB made the upgrade a while back too. It would be cool if a moderator could go back to day 1 of TB, but does it matter? Switch over to fretless and you’ll be very surprised at how small that pool is!

 

[skyline_01]

I fully agree on the VM P5. Just found one NOS online and grabbed it up.

 

[nixdad]

Bill is one awesome luthier, too. He saved my 170 year-old upright when it started to cave-in thanks to a poorly done "re-graduation" (don't ask) of the top plate. Welcome to Merchant Bass

I, too, am no hater of Fenders, and I have about seven or so of them! Never could warm up to 90's Fender 5-strings.

Agreed - Bill has an excellent reputation as far as I’m aware, and is much more well known for his upright color contributions.
Yep - they simply missed the mark with their 90’s Jazz 5’s.