This is a textbook example of listening with your eyes.
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Why did Leo do this?
- Thread starter CaribooBass
- Start date
Ric5
Inactive
- Jan 29, 2008
- 29,772
- 30,452
- Disclosures
- I like 5, 8, 10, and 12 string basses
The '60s bridge Jazz Bass pickup position also provides room for the felt mute/spring assemblies as installed on early the basses.
When company is coming over, my wife hides things she doesn't want our guests to see. Same principle at work here - some CBS Engineer thought pickups looked ugly, and moved the bridge one under the cover, figuring noone would notice. 50 years later, we're still talking about it (and almost nobody uses the damn covers anyway), so whoever he or she was, they were wrong about that detail.
To answer your question, spacing changes the sound. Not so much the spacing as where the pickup is actually located. If a pickup is close to the bridge it has a specific sound, and the closer or farther the pickup is from the bridge (or neck) the sound changes more and more. As you get closer to the neck it gets boomy, closer to the bridge is less boomy and more punch
Granted, this was a post-Leo change, and we can't ask Leo what he thought of the CBS change to his penultimate Fender bass design. But we can look at the L-2500 as the evolution of his design off a two-pickup bass guitar.
It's hard to compare placement on single coil vs double, but measuring from the pole pieces of the outer coil, my L2500 bridge pickup is in the same place as my 70s Jazz, 15 inches from the 12th fret. So the inner coil is roughly in the 60s spacing position. (Best of both/split the difference? Who knows if the thought even crossed his mind.) The neck pickup however, is moved closer to the bridge. The outer pole pieces are 11 1/4 inches from the 12th fret, compared to 10 7/8 inches on the Jazz.
(Disclaimer: I have a Tribute L-2500, so I have no idea if these measurements are the same on Leo's original L-2500 production runs.)
From the L2500 I don't think we can say which Jazz bridge pickup placement he preferred in the end, but he definitely preferred pickups closer together, or maybe just a neck pickup further from the neck/closer to the bridge. His further-from-the-neck preference is also in evidence on the single pickup Sting Ray compared to the Precision. I don't have a G&L JB to measure but I think the bridge pickup is 60s spacing? So maybe that's the actual final word on Leo's Jazz design preferences (or maybe his staff just went with what they thought was best, who knows).
Of course at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what Leo liked or was thinking on a given design. Use your own ears, eyes and hands and choose the bass that works best for you.
There's an embarrassment of riches to choose from out there, and no practical need to divine the intentions of St. Leo.
It's hard to compare placement on single coil vs double, but measuring from the pole pieces of the outer coil, my L2500 bridge pickup is in the same place as my 70s Jazz, 15 inches from the 12th fret. So the inner coil is roughly in the 60s spacing position. (Best of both/split the difference? Who knows if the thought even crossed his mind.) The neck pickup however, is moved closer to the bridge. The outer pole pieces are 11 1/4 inches from the 12th fret, compared to 10 7/8 inches on the Jazz.
(Disclaimer: I have a Tribute L-2500, so I have no idea if these measurements are the same on Leo's original L-2500 production runs.)
From the L2500 I don't think we can say which Jazz bridge pickup placement he preferred in the end, but he definitely preferred pickups closer together, or maybe just a neck pickup further from the neck/closer to the bridge. His further-from-the-neck preference is also in evidence on the single pickup Sting Ray compared to the Precision. I don't have a G&L JB to measure but I think the bridge pickup is 60s spacing? So maybe that's the actual final word on Leo's Jazz design preferences (or maybe his staff just went with what they thought was best, who knows).
Of course at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what Leo liked or was thinking on a given design. Use your own ears, eyes and hands and choose the bass that works best for you.
There's an embarrassment of riches to choose from out there, and no practical need to divine the intentions of St. Leo.
The P bass is still king.
Pre-CBS Fender refers to the "Leo" years.
In 1965, Leo sold Fender to CBS. (with a 10 year non-compete clause)
As they entered the 70s, CBS became increasingly "out of touch".
It's entirely plausible that decisions such as changing pickup placement were made purely for cosmetic reasons, and any resulting tonal impact could have been considered of little consequence at the time.
By they time (cbs) Fender changed the Jazz bass bridge PU position, Leo was likely already secretly tinkering with the position of the Stingray Humbucker.
More importantly, why did Leo change the spacing of the dots at the 12th fret by '64?!
And then CBS later tried to sweep the controversy under the rug for good by going to block inlays!
On Jan 5th 1965 I believe the deal was done so virtually all 1965 Fenders are transitional Fenders and technically post-CBS.
I like the spacing on my '75, but I also understand that the spacing is just one of dozens of variables that goes into the sound of my bass.
Whatever. I don't care. I like how it sounds, so I'm happy with the spacing.
Whatever. I don't care. I like how it sounds, so I'm happy with the spacing.
Let me add to the repeated answer. You will see 30 more later minimum. Leo was not there. He was checking out his orange and almond groves.
A drawback of having had a career in engineering is that I get the heebie-jeebies reading “explanations” like many of the ones in this thread.
Granted, this was a post-Leo change, and we can't ask Leo what he thought of the CBS change to his penultimate Fender bass design. But we can look at the L-2500 as the evolution of his design off a two-pickup bass guitar.
It's hard to compare placement on single coil vs double, but measuring from the pole pieces of the outer coil, my L2500 bridge pickup is in the same place as my 70s Jazz, 15 inches from the 12th fret. So the inner coil is roughly in the 60s spacing position. (Best of both/split the difference? Who knows if the thought even crossed his mind.) The neck pickup however, is moved closer to the bridge. The outer pole pieces are 11 1/4 inches from the 12th fret, compared to 10 7/8 inches on the Jazz.
(Disclaimer: I have a Tribute L-2500, so I have no idea if these measurements are the same on Leo's original L-2500 production runs.)
From the L2500 I don't think we can say which Jazz bridge pickup placement he preferred in the end, but he definitely preferred pickups closer together, or maybe just a neck pickup further from the neck/closer to the bridge. His further-from-the-neck preference is also in evidence on the single pickup Sting Ray compared to the Precision. I don't have a G&L JB to measure but I think the bridge pickup is 60s spacing? So maybe that's the actual final word on Leo's Jazz design preferences (or maybe his staff just went with what they thought was best, who knows).
Of course at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what Leo liked or was thinking on a given design. Use your own ears, eyes and hands and choose the bass that works best for you.
At least you did not just do a repeat - rehash of what people wrote prior. Smart on the G&L angle. Original spacing is the original intent it seems.
Being a Fender dealer when CBS was in control, I can tell you this. Regardless of what you may think about the magical pickup placement or the lack of magic after the different pickup placement, we all must remember one thing. We're talking about CBS musical instrumemts not Fender musical instruments. Anything that was done to any instrument or amp or any changes that were made to any instrument or amp were made for one reason only. They were made by CBS in order to make more profit. If they could figure out a cheaper or easier way to do something and maximize profits that's what they did.
Some years of production did have the basses made with the old spacing and some with a new spacing. That was primarily due to using up existing bodies that already were finished and ready to go with the old spacing. CBS was definitely not going to just toss those bodies so they built them and sold them.
Some years of production did have the basses made with the old spacing and some with a new spacing. That was primarily due to using up existing bodies that already were finished and ready to go with the old spacing. CBS was definitely not going to just toss those bodies so they built them and sold them.
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I didn't say it was a perfect method. I just said that's what Leo did, according to accounts of those who worked with him.
You can blame CBS, but don't blame an engineer! We don't make decisions based on cosmetics. It's not in our DNA. We are often, however, forced to comply with marketing's arbitrary requirements as long as nobody will die...
I personally really like the "70's position" with both pickups full-up, and I rarely solo the bridge pickup, anyway. I've got J's with pickups in both locations and find both very usable.
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I like the pre 2020 placement of the indicator lights on the Hyundai Elantra. My kid scientifically validated her turning intent is more clearly broadcast. As a parent that assumption of safety is comforting.
What have we done wrong now? Quote and post away.
I'm a big fan of the L-series basses, but a couple of things should be noted.
1. Folklore says that the original L2k neck pickup was actually closer to the neck and moved toward the bridge for cosmetic reasons. I've seen pictures of an early L2k prototype with the neck pickup much closer to the neck.
2. The L-series was never intended to operate in single-coil mode, so the placement of an individual coil wasn't likely a consideration. The placement of the 2 coils together was more likely considered.
3. The L1000 (Leo's first single-pickup G&L) placed the pickup very roughly in the same position as the P-bass. This is were the L2k neck pickup ended up. The "MM position" closer to the bridge didn't show up in a G&L until the Climax after Leo had passed.
I think it's hard to make too many judgements about the progression of Leo's thoughts regarding pickup positions. Yeah, the MM pickup was closer to the bridge, but then the L1000 was back in P territory, and the L2k was supposedly changed for cosmetic reasons rather than sonic reasons, or so the internet said.
All that aside, I really like the L-2500 in single-coil mode with the outer coils, which is very roughly "70s Jazz position".
