Double Bass Why do guys with chops insist on playing so damn fast?

[damonsmith]

The beauty of it is, a half-assed double bass player is worth 10 of those type of guitarists. It takes A LOT more than being good to make guitar matter at this point.
I love playing with a great guitarist (and I have been very lucky to play with a lot of good ones, Henry Kaiser for one has given me more big breaks than anyone), but nothing is worse than egotistical moron that thinks anyone cares about a guitarist with "chops" these days.

 

[Uncletoad]

On the one hand, the ability to play at fast tempos is something of a prerequisite for jazz and there is certainly a long history of turning the music into a quasi-Olympic event. In the Bebop days, you either hung or went home. And I've certainly played my share of gigs where it seemed everyone was getting paid by the note.

Yes this is true and a shortcoming of mine. I can't hang on gigs that go down that road. I don't have the facility to play fast like that. I kid a lot about sucking but I kinda do. Clearly in that context anyhow.

And finally, there's just no excuse for bad or insulting manners on a gig. If the guitar player had insulted me like that on break, I wouldn't have been there for the next set.

My name's on the marquee, I shoulda tossed him to the curb. Thing is he was pinch hitting on a cheap gig for my brother who's name is also on the marquee and not there that night.

Truth is it pissed me off but in the end I just don't give that much of a ****. I bitched to you guys in the middle of the night and that was pretty much it.

It pissed me off moreso because even if he tossed that kinda junk at me I would have liked have been able to turn it around and play him into the dirt or make him look like a dope on the gig but I didn't have the stuff.

He exposed my vulnerability and that pissed me off even more than his stupidity.

My brother could have played him in the dirt but he's got lots more stuff in that arena than I do. I know far more tunes in way more genres than he does (or most of the cats I encounter). I can play Classic Rock tunes, Grateful Dead tunes and Country tunes, and all kinds of weird tunes all night and dust my bro on that stuff but the Jazz tunes are his thing. He's got a degree in theory and comp, I was a psych major and toured in a rock band for a long time before I touched a jazz tune. I'm a tourist in comparison.

Nobody notices that stuff really. They mostly thought guitar boy played like a jerk and commented that I seemed accommodating and tolerant.

Maturity and poise can make up for a lack of shed time too....

 

[funkalicious101]

mmmmmm, thats good superiority complex.

 

[Mark Perna]

Good god, I thought it was his gig. He insulted YOU on YOUR gig? You hired him and he went all speed metal on you and THEN insulted you? What a chump.

The beautiful thing about being the leader is you get to pick the stuff that makes you sound good. You pick the tempo. You don't NEED to be able to blow Giant Steps down at 350 bpm. As leader, it will never be called. If the guitar player hijacked the gig, he crossed one of the cardinal rules of working for a living: ALWAYS make the leader sound good and he might hire you again. Screw with him and kiss the work goodbye.

I used to play with a local Pittsburgh jazz piano legend, Walt Harper. He died last October but for the last 50 years or so, he was revered. Walt, in all fairness and I am not trying to be mean or speak ill of the dead because I genuinely liked the guy, couldn't play his way out of a paperbag. He was a truly awful pianist. His time was mediocre; he frequently bobbled it. He dropped beats. He entered in the wrong places. He had almost no chops. Couldn't really improvise. All of his solos were memorized--really they were almost part of the compositions because he would play the EXACT same solo every time over F blues. But he had charisma even as an 80 year old with lots of health problems. Tons of it. And he worked like nobody's business. Ray Brown and Stanley Turrentine (both close personal friends-Walt and Ray grew up together) played on his last two albums. John Clayton arranged the two before that for a big band. EVERYBODY in town loved him.

I was his bassist for the last 3 years of his life. I kept the gig by making Walt sound good. I have lots of chops and when I play with guys with lots of chops, I can hang. I really didn't use those chops on Walt's gig. I played solid time and my swingingest solos. I adjusted whenever Walt made a mistake and tried to cover any mistakes that he made (sometimes with mistakes of my own). I did whatever I had to to make this revered jazz icon, who couldn't play worth diddly, sound as good as he possibly could.

But the point of this ramble is Walt was the leader. He picked the tunes and the tempos and he only chose stuff he could play. Walt was definately not the guy to call for a pickup jazz gig but in his own element, with his own band, and playing his own material, he could hang. He always hired really good sidemen and they made him sound better than he was. We played latin tunes, light funk tunes, medium swing tunes and groovy soul jazz type tunes. We NEVER played anything fast. Walt made a serious career out of never playing outside of his limitations.

If I had gone into that gig overplaying like mad and rushing the tempos and then insulting Walt because he couldn't hang, I'd have been fired in a heartbeat. As it was, I enjoyed the gig. I wasn't really slumming because I had to take what was there and make it as good as it could be. It was intellectually interesting more than artistically satisfying but I really developed my craft on those gigs. Plus Walt's Ray Brown stories he told on break were priceless.

mark

 

[Uncletoad]

Yea it's kinda like that. My brother is the leader on the gig and he subbed himself out. Say's "Maneri Brothers" on the door but I'm still a sideman in my head. I'm so used to sideman position in everything I do that I don't call tunes or tempos or anything like that. I'm the guy that tries to make the leader sound good.

So absent my leader behavior I got hijacked.

An unusually pathetic showing from a generally take no **** kinda guy.

Sleep deprivation, cheap gig, and "I've got a baby at home I know I'm gonna have to feed when I hit the door" has lulled me out.

Speaking of that...there he goes again.

 

[bribass]

Phil, I can relate to your story. I've been in situations like that more times than I care to recall. While you're playing uptempos like that w/o any musicality it feels like musical torture to me. I have less and less patience for players like that as I get older (maybe it IS my 3 kids). Makes me want to just stop playing at that moment.

My saxophonist buddy Dick Meldonian, a wonderfully melodic player and a 78 yr old veteran who's worked for many greats like Benny Goodman, Stan Kenton and Gerry Mulligan, has a great line for players like that.

He says to them quietly w/a smile between tunes...
"less notes...same money, less notes"
Sometimes they get it.

Hang in their Phil and try to remember the transcendant musical moments instead.

Bri

 

[Jeff Bonny]

So absent my leader behavior I got hijacked.

Give the guy a long blank stare while picturing him expiring in a pool of his own blood.
I find doing this often gives those who need it most pause for deep inner reflection.
Seems to be most effective when in the mood to actually cause said expiration.

 

[Jeff Kissell]

"Well son, if music was a race you surely would come in first place"

A very close friend (guitar player even!) once related that pithy quote to me during a gig with a similar type of wank artist.

I'm not sure who actually said it, but it sums up plenty about hired gun guitar players.

-J



just a thought - If you're getting paid by the note, wouldn't you want each note to be worth more?

 

[bopeuph]

I once had a sax player call Cherokee. Count it off at a ridiculous tempo then proceed to turn the melody around and around. After the song he turned around to me and said "Man, you guys should really work on that tune" my response "Actually I think you should really work on playing whole notes and half notes"

That's great. I bet he took that well! I'm gonna use that sometime.

A few years ago, about six months into just getting interested in playing jazz bass, I went to the school jam session. There was this hot shot tenor that once the host combo was finished, he'd take over the jam on his own accord. No one asked him to do it, he just jumps on stage, plays all the tunes. If you call a tune he doesn't like, he says "no, let's do this one instead," or "I hate that tune. Pick something else."

I went up there to play a tune, and I called something, and he said the former of the above. He picked Cherokee. I told him that while I know the changes, my chops aren't ready to burn on the tune. So he goes "how about this tempo?" and snaps at a decent mark. I said that's fine, and then he counts it off at twice the tempo he told me. I fell all over it and handed my bass off to someone else mid-tune.

Being the over polite guy that I am, I went to apologize to this guy. He said exactly this: "man, you call yourself a bass player, but you can't even get through that tune. I'd give up and go back to just shedding euphonium if I were you." Kieth Javors heard about what happened and said this kid was lucky Kieth or Bunky Green wasn't there to put him in his place by calling a well known standard in an off key at a breakneck tempo. HA!

That kid went to New York, because all his teachers, including Bunky, told him that's where he should be. About three months later, he moved back to Tampa and now teaches middle school band.

Nick

 

[Uncletoad]

He must have moved to Columbus. I swear it's the same guy.

 

[Marc Piane]

That's great. I bet he took that well! I'm gonna use that sometime.

I'm such a mild mannered guy on gigs I think he was dumbfounded.

It might have had something to do with the 'trip to his car' he took during the break too.

Two things that piss me off on gigs... 1. trying to show off and falling on your face then blaming the band (happens all tthe time to us poor bass players) 2. Letting your recreational activities during the breaks get in the way of the music.

He did both.

 

[rdwhit]

He sounds like an arse. Good riddance. There's technical chops, and then there's musical chops. Sounds like he might have the first, but doesn't even know the second kind exists. I've been dissed like that at the ends of gigs before, and I simply make it a point not to play with those people again. Sounds like you handled the situation just fine. And yes, fatherhood does change things, dunnit? Some things that used to seem important start to seem like a complete waste of time. Ya done good.

Musically, seduction is the name of the game in my book. Pornstar wannabees can find another bassist in the 'Ville.

Hey Chris, does the above mentioned guitar player remind You of anyone here in the 'Ville? Duh.
I'm sure this guy will never read this. He playes like an exercise textbook 500 MPH even on ballads and has his head up his a--. Very good player, but a bore to listen to for musicians and the audience both. He is all about one upmanship.
I like heavy chops players who use them at the right time and have something to say. BUT NOT ALL THE TIME!!!!!!!

 

[Jeff Michael]

I would have handed him his night's pay on the first break and told him to go home. A guy like that is a cancer on the bandstand; the best thing he can do for your act is leave, so that's how your money ends up being best spent in that situation.

I have this thing I call the First Commandment of the Rhythm Section: Thou shalt not make it worse. I worked with this drummer who we now think may have been borderline psychotic (yeah, I know, what a shock). When the inevitable miscues would go down on a gig--missed hits, endings, the occasional tempo slippage--they guy would shake his head, roll his eyes--in short, if you were in the bar chatting with somebody and suspected you heard a mistake, if you looked up this guy would essentially confirm it. His ego was just too wrapped up in it, or something.

I tried talking him through it--I tried explaining that when things go wrong I just start smiling bigger, I tried telling him that singers and guitarists and such were a skittish breed and that we were the musical shepherds that made them feel safe and guided them home, that if they start to suspect things are wobbling we have to bear down and make like Superman to make them feel unassailable.

It would help for awhile, but ultimately character is destiny. A little under a year ago he was the sole cause of the single most awkward uncomfortable gig of a career filled with them...er, you know what I mean. The singer ended the night in tears, and she's not one to do that. My guitarist collected money from us, paid him as he hurled his drums into his truck, and he was fired the next morning. His playing that night was, and I had trouble wrapping my mind around such a combination of words just as I do typing them now, musical revenge. He was really playing to punish us. It was surreal to the point of pure incomprehensibility. Strangely enough, when the guitarist talked to him about the fiasco the next day as he fired him, the drummer didn't think it had been that bad of a night.

o he goes "how about this tempo?" and snaps at a decent mark. I said that's fine, and then he counts it off at twice the tempo he told me.Nick

You don't think he was snapping on two and four maybe?

JAM

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I'm sure this guy will never read this. He playes like an exercise textbook 500 MPH even on ballads and has his head up his a--. Very good player, but a bore to listen to for musicians and the audience both. He is all about one upmanship.

Hey Chris, does the above mentioned guitar player remind You of anyone here in the 'Ville? Duh.

I don't recall.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I like heavy chops players who use them at the right time and have something to say. BUT NOT ALL THE TIME!!!!!!!

That, I do recall, and definitely agree with. Chops are fine as long as they don't become a monochrome way of life.

 

[TroyK]

Clifford is the master of using his chops at the right time for the right purpose in my opinion. Started most solos really sparse, then tension, tension, tension.....chops release!

Phil, if Clifford ever vibes you on a gig, I'm taking his side.

 

[svenbass]

I sounded fantastic but couldn't find my way through the tunes without standing in a waist deep pile of clams.

I have this steady Tuesday gig, and for whatever reason, I can't get through the night without serving up clinkers left and right. Any other night is usually pretty smooth give or take the odd cup of chowder.

Oh, and when dealing with Chops McNotey I usually suggest that if one left a little space, some music might fall out.

I'm also typing this after completely overplaying on my gig tonight in the absence of the organ player. I guess the upside is that at least I know I was being a tool.

 

[Marc Piane]

Hey Sven. Not to derail but I have been playing a bit Jeff Lien here in Chitown and have a gig coming up with him and Roger Panella. Didn't you guys play together in Boston? Cheers. M-->

 

[svenbass]

Hey Sven. Not to derail but I have been playing a bit Jeff Lien here in Chitown and have a gig coming up with him and Roger Panella. Didn't you guys play together in Boston? Cheers. M-->

Hey! Yeah that's me. I miss those guys a lot - great, honest musicians. I've been thinking of moving that way in the near future - ya got room for one more low end fisherman? Cheers - Sven

 

[bopeuph]

You don't think he was snapping on two and four maybe?JAM

Yes, he was. Both times. He snapped on two and four (you can tell by the way one bounces his wrist when snapping time), asked me if that was fine, I said yes, and he doubled it with a verbal countoff. "1, 2, 1 2 3 4!" A few friends were there to witness it and called him out on it.

Not that it really matters any more. I've been shedding like a fiend since that incident about four years ago. Next time I meet him, I will play whatever he throws at me, and I could do something similar to him if I really wanted to. But that's just bad form.

Nick

 

[M Ramsey]

My kid, Aaron, falls into this trap at times. He is an excellent rhythm player on guitar, banjo, mandolin, dobro, bass (both slab and upright) whether it be jazz, bluegrass or whatever.

Sometimes, when we were playing together all the time, we could stay up with him on fast stuff. But that comes from being tight with the ensemble sound. He can get into jams with other musicians at the top of their game and lock up the time.

I had to quote myself to update on this thread.

Went to Loudoun, TN, this past weekend and Aaron and friends played in a fiddler's convention contest. They placed second as a band, they won the miscellaneous category, Aaron placed second in flatpicked guitar and first in mandolin.

In the mandolin category, he played "Big Mon" a quick tune written by Bill Monroe. I counted bass beats and it was played at 196 bpm. That's quick. But, Aaron being Aaron, it was clean and actually made musical sense.

For Aaron's participation in the contests, playing a total of 13 tunes/songs, he brought home about $460. Maybe I ought not to be too critical of his abilities to play with speed.