Why do people think that more notes = better?

[Whousedtoplay]

those who can't cry about others doing it on the Internet.

You've intrigued me with that "doing it on the Internet(!???)"

Well, that wasn't my point in the OP, but I can see how it could have been construed that way. Apologies

No need to apologize if somebody PURPOSELY MISCONSTRUED your comment.
JimmyM is a solidly-good and very knowledgeable bass player. JimmyM knows HOW to play any bass-line for this or that song, style, etc...
JimmyM has a very good sense of the song's/composition's texture, its requirements.
JimmyM has a lot of experience to catch the band leader's/composer's/arranger's ideas, intentions, visions, etc...

I've found out that if you want to ask a question here at TB, you MUST include a lot of STIPULATIONS, descriptions, etc...;
otherwise, some TB members unintentionally, some ON PURPOSE (just because!) will MISINTERPRET your comment.

P.S. What do you think about the following video with John Patitucci?

Is John Patitucci playing too many notes?

 

[Charlzm]

why do so many people assume that playing more notes, or playing faster, means you are a better musician? Is it just that they don't understand music, and, in particular, the role of the bass in most songs?

Or is it that some people like one thing and other people like something else?

 

[Roy Vogt]

It's funny. When I was in my teens and 20s I was really focused on developing my technique and trying to be the fastest bassist on earth (really!). When I finished with Music School and relocated to Nashville to work as a bass player it was a quantum leap and paradigm shift where how my half notes felt would be a make or break issue on sessions or live gigs. All of a sudden, chops became about consistent tone, time feel and good ideas (that I'd often have to make up on the spot). I definitely got a newfound respect for all the pocket players like Chuck Rainey, Willie Weeks, James Jamerson, Will Lee and Nashville guys like Bob Moore, Joe Allen and Tommy Cogbill. I think the lure of the "burning fingers" is often a valuable phase in a player's life. I pretty much accumulated whatever physical chops and speed I have now by the time I was 25. I still do a little bit of maintenance practicing on that when I feel rusty, but a lot of my work these days is trying to get more and different ideas from World Music (Brazilian and African bassists in particular) and deeper harmonic approaches (Thanks, Jeff Berlin, Ron Miller and Dave Liebman!). I'm fond of playing, say, "Teen Town" for my Freshmen bassists and then having them match Jaco's speed on just 16th notes on one note. Almost all of them can play that fast. That allows me to show them that what made Jaco (or Victor Wooten, Stanley Clarke, Hadrien Feraud, etc.) who he was was his ideas and not so much his speed.
I think a lot of "chops" players are only perceived as being that because it's like the 10% of the iceberg above the surface. Unless someone has based their entire career on flashing their chops on Youtube (still not sure if anyone has really monetized that yet!) most chopsmeisters who work a lot and sustain careers have great tone, time and feel. I just hosted a Bass Event at Summer NAMM and saw this amply demonstrated by Bobby Vega and Andrew Gouche, among others. Prince didn't care that Andrew could play all he does (well, he probably appreciated his killer chops), but he was definitely concerned with him playing the gig correctly (per a Bass Player interview in the Prince article in the current issue). I saw Bobby play at the North Sea Jazz Festival with Etta James in 1989 and he just made that band a funky Groove Machine with his playing. It's the other 90% that requires nurturing and keeps the phone ringing.

 

[Roy Vogt]

You've intrigued me with that "doing it on the Internet(!???)"



No need to apologize if somebody PURPOSELY MISCONSTRUED your comment.
JimmyM is a solidly-good and very knowledgeable bass player. JimmyM knows HOW to play any bass-line for this or that song, style, etc...
JimmyM has a very good sense of the song's/composition's texture, its requirements.
JimmyM has a lot of experience to catch the band leader's/composer's/arranger's ideas, intentions, visions, etc...

I've found out that if you want to ask a question here at TB, you MUST include a lot of STIPULATIONS, descriptions, etc...;
otherwise, some TB members unintentionally, some ON PURPOSE (just because!) will MISINTERPRET your comment.

P.S. What do you think about the following video with John Patitucci?

Is John Patitucci playing too many notes?

Interestingly, John has stated in interviews that if he didn't take care of the 90% of the bassist's gig that doesn't require blistering solos he wouldn't be in a position to play the other 10% that he shows here. I've spent a bit of time with John and seen how he interacts with my students and I'll be the first to tell everyone that he was all about feel, tone and swing/pocket and really encouraged them to deal with the business of those parts of their playing first. One of the things that he has his upright students do at Berklee is to practice playing time on a ride cymbal so they can appreciate how their time feel really is and how important it is to play with the drummer.

 

[David Vector]

Since the OP mentioned Yes and Rush...despite Geddy's ample facility on the fretboard, some of his lines that I find the most effective and compelling are not the most difficult to play - things like "Force Ten" and "Distant Early Warning." Those are fairly simple parts, but they have real personality and are "hooks" that play a big role in defining the songs, while the guitar is either chugging away on a power chord, hitting some suspended chord splashes or playing counterpoint to the bass. Same thing with "Marathon" - the bass propels the song and has the most memorable motif. Honestly, it's harder to come up with a composed motif that's memorable than to just throw in a flurry of 16th notes every few bars. Speaking of "Force Ten," Alex Lifeson's parts on that song are a virtual primer on how powerful a more subtle part that is exactly the right thing for that moment in the song can be. That mute picked part on the choruses with the delay - how many other players would have thought of that and gone that way? That soaring line behind the vocal on the last chorus still puts goosebumps on my forearms too. Those are the things that impress me most in music, those moments where you go, "Wow, what were they even thinking of at the time to make them come up with that part - what it does in that moment is just perfect." A moment like that is worth more than a whole song's worth of running Hanon exercises on a fretboard to me.

 

[lfmn16]

I could become cynical and attribute the overt hate on talkbass for bass styles that play the dreaded "TOO MANY NOTES by those who don't play that many notes to, oh, hmmmmm... I don't know... hmmmm.... ummmmmm.... (well, awkward).

There is nothing wrong with playing simple, but I get tired of all the hate for people that DON'T want to play simple. Don't learn to read, don't learn theory, don't bother developing good technique, keep it simple - what ever happened to mastering your craft? Not everybody wants to play Mustang Sally for $100 a night while the MILFs shake their assets on the dance floor. Some of us want to make music.

 

[pcake]

i've been thinking about this thread since i last posted. something people said on earlier pages about musicians showing off bothers me. why shouldn't every player occasionally get to show off? does that have to be a bad thing? ya work for 30+ years to get really good at something, why shouldn't you get to demonstrate your chops?

 

[jazzycats]

There´s nothing wrong with playing fast or slow. It´s a matter of taste. I love Chris Squire´s playing, but I also love BB King or David Gilmour just to name a few that are soulful and are all about the choice of notes that better fits their taste and soul.

 

[Bunk McNulty]

Can't expect a non-musician to appreciate the finer skills of musicianship. I'd be happy that he even knows what a bass is and what it sounds like. Sometimes I don't think my wife even knows what I do.

 

[SAlcott]

A bass player friend of mine once opined after hearing a shredder-type splooging all over the bandstand, "I wish I could play like that so I wouldn't have to."

 

[lfmn16]

i've been thinking about this thread since i last posted. something people said on earlier pages about musicians showing off bothers me. why shouldn't every player occasionally get to show off? does that have to be a bad thing? ya work for 30+ years to get really good at something, why shouldn't you get to demonstrate your chops?

I wish I could 'like' this more than once. Most of the people I hear whining about 'show offs' don't have anything to show off.

Bass playing was much more interesting in the 70's. Listen to most of the rock groups from that era - The Who, Deep Purple, The Faces, Rod Stewart, The Rolling Stones, The Beatles, Hendrix, Cream, Jefferson Airplane, etc., etc., etc. None of those bass players played root/5th ad nauseum. The problem is that when you can only play root/5th, you think that is is the alpha and omega of bass playing.

 

[johnson79]

You've intrigued me with that "doing it on the Internet(!???)"



No need to apologize if somebody PURPOSELY MISCONSTRUED your comment.
JimmyM is a solidly-good and very knowledgeable bass player. JimmyM knows HOW to play any bass-line for this or that song, style, etc...
JimmyM has a very good sense of the song's/composition's texture, its requirements.
JimmyM has a lot of experience to catch the band leader's/composer's/arranger's ideas, intentions, visions, etc...

I've found out that if you want to ask a question here at TB, you MUST include a lot of STIPULATIONS, descriptions, etc...;
otherwise, some TB members unintentionally, some ON PURPOSE (just because!) will MISINTERPRET your comment.

P.S. What do you think about the following video with John Patitucci?

Is John Patitucci playing too many notes?

The bass face is strong with this one.

 

[Herrick]

I am IMPRESSED with pure musical virtuosity regarding technique and it's almost a type of creative athleticism (esp with the drums). I am impressed by pure speed, with near perfect muting, note length and attack. I am impressed by people who can manage frequent time signature changes, tempo changes, and polyrhythms, I am DAMN IMPRESSED by that stuff. I am impressed by Heifetz playing Paganini. I am impressed by a Buddy Rich drum solo. I am floored by a guitar duel between players like Chet Atkins and Jerry Reed, or Al DiMeola and John McLaughlin. I LOVE hearing Zappa with Arthur and Vinnie because they can play too many notes, or a note here and there, or no note or a bazillion in a flurry.

I am stunned by VIRTUOSOs, and I think it's healthy to aspire in some measure to be one.

I feel the same way but I guess you and I are just immature kids who don't know any better.

P.S. What do you think about the following video with John Patitucci?

Is John Patitucci playing too many notes?

Yeah he's playing too many notes. He's just an immature kid who doesn't know any better. And he's not playing with any "feel". He should just play guitar.

 

[bassbully]

I once played in a classic rock band with a drummer who refused to play any Beatles songs since all of Ringo's parts were too boring. He was a Rush fan. A good musician approaches a piece of music with the idea of what can I do to build this song, not trample it to death.

 

[Al Kraft]

I think a great bass player is one who can rise to the occasion and do what a song requires of him or her to be supportive of the band and please the audience they're in front of. Sometimes that's a smoking hot bass lick, and at other times it's all about a groove that no one even realizes is carrying the song unless you stop playing. People who are listening to the lead singer or a guitar solo are often tapping their foot or dancing to the bass groove without even knowing it.

I come at this from an ensemble player mindset and most of what I do requires supporting others who are playing lead parts - that is a skill and a huge responsibility. Even when there is a signature bass line or solo part, my playing is still focused on how that supports and energizes the band to enable us to delight the audience.

 

[JimmyM]

No need to apologize if somebody PURPOSELY MISCONSTRUED your comment.
JimmyM is a solidly-good and very knowledgeable bass player. JimmyM knows HOW to play any bass-line for this or that song, style, etc...
JimmyM has a very good sense of the song's/composition's texture, its requirements.
JimmyM has a lot of experience to catch the band leader's/composer's/arranger's ideas, intentions, visions, etc...

I've found out that if you want to ask a question here at TB, you MUST include a lot of STIPULATIONS, descriptions, etc...;
otherwise, some TB members unintentionally, some ON PURPOSE (just because!) will MISINTERPRET your comment.

I didn't misconstrue anything. I'm cool with the OP's apology (was not asking for one, BTW), but this is most clearly a thread where a lot of people like to congratulate themselves for not playing very fast or complex and bag on those who can.

 

[pcake]

I didn't misconstrue anything. I'm cool with the OP's apology (was not asking for one, BTW), but this is most clearly a thread where a lot of people like to congratulate themselves for not playing very fast or complex and bag on those who can.

that's sure the feeling i got after reading a lot of posts in this thread.

and i find that happens in real life, too. this roots bass player (nothing wrong with that) came over to me to tell me i played too fast, that i should learn to play slow so i could play quality music. btw, this was at a rehearsal studio after i had had the courtesy to go to his band's show to support them. i was dumbfounded. i can play slow just fine - it was hardly my first rodeo, and he was so sure and smug about it. i could have played everything he did the way he did, and frankly with more nuance. second, i feel that all the music i play is quality music or i wouldn't be playing it (well, okay, most of it). just because he doesn't like fast, intense or hard music doesn't mean it's not good music - it only means he doesn't like it.

*sigh*

 

[bassestkkm]

Better is subjective. I have a few instruments for reference, but I think it boils down to the classical instruments. Piano, nylon guitar, violin, cello, trumpet, etc. in those instruments your "skill level" or advancement comes from being able to navigate your way through more technically nuanced and a lot of the time faster pieces.

I always think of flight of the bumblebee. I hate that song, yet to the untrained ear if you bust it out they will, without a doubt, be floored. Of course to a trained musician the more important part is can you feel those parts. If you can show the emotion of the piece and encompass the frantic pace and accents in the right places you can impress musicians too.

I think that in the bass world feel is very important to bass players. We assume that chugging through a fast piece isn't enough, whether it's metal to rock or jazz or blues. You have to have the groove and the feel. It's like Neil Peart in the drumming world. He is an incredible drummer but people often take issue with his time keeping because it's very straight and they think it doesn't have feel. Then the go to Bonham who has a groove and think he's the better drummer because of it. It's all subjective.

Now back to bass. It depends on the music entirely. If I'm playing Beatles or Rush or Yes, I have to play the melodic/ counter melodic bass line because in the context of the voicing that is what fits best. But it depends on the genre. Sometimes a single note AC/DC bass line is enough and sometimes a chugging Black Sabbath line is enough. But sometimes you have to be melodic like in Rush Yes or Beatles music. This isn't something non musicians can relate to. It's purely a musician and their nuanced hearing and preferences.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

...he (John Patitucci) was all about feel, tone and swing/pocket and really encouraged them to deal with the business of those parts of their playing first.

Maybe I'm wrong but I always think about a very simple quarter note as (MINIMUM) four 16th notes (a 16th note grouping) tied together different ways.
To me, the quarter note can have that "feel, tone and swing/pocket" only it is SUBDIVIDED.
There is a BIG difference if someone plays that quarter note as a stubborn and unrefined quarter note or as
three three 16th notes tied together, plus one 16th rest,
or
as two 16th notes tied together, plus two 16th rests,
or
as seven 32nd notes, plus one 32nd rest,
or
as five 32nd notes, plus three 32nd rests, etc...

What if somebody wants to add that "behind/ahead of the beat" feel (otherwise known as "feeling rushed or relaxed)?
In this case, we need to deal with the 64th note subdivision.

John Patitucci is an extraordinary Musician with humongous Music Knowledge and experience.
If John plays even simple quarter notes at 148BPM, it means that he is very comfortable of playing (MINIMUM) the 16th notes at that tempo, even 32nd notes with some spots of the extremely fast 64th notes - for BETTER articulation of "feel, tone and swing/pocket" at that tempo.

P.S. I'm sorry for such a long comment.

 

[Medicine Man]

I struggle with playing too busy all the time. It takes concentration to reign it in somtimes. I can hold down a pocket as well as the next, but the crowd only screams during the occasional 16 bars of "wanking." I think both have their place as called for by the music. To never hold a pocket isn't tasteful, and to never wank out isn't interesting. Truly great players know when to do each. (Which I don't claim to be, btw.)