Doner Designs
Steve Doner
- Jun 2, 2012
- 5,784
- 6,819
- Disclosures
- Doner Designs is an alias for Steve Doner
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Ask Mozart.
The way you asked your question is biased so any response you get you contrary to your idea is most likely going to be dismissed. If you can avoid that, I have some answers.
1.) No instrument has a set role. It is up to the creativity of the artist to find new ways to use something. The role of the bass is whatever the player wants it to be.
2.) Playing more notes is exciting. Playing less notes is boring. For all the yammering TBers do about "the pocket" the truth is no one really likes boring bass players that play less. Even old school guys like Duck Dunn and James Jamerson played more than on-beat root quarter notes. There is a point of diminishing returns for playing too much, but more is more fun.
3.) Its a simple matter of what I think of as "leveling." I'm a RPG nut, which are full of skill trees. To move from one level of the skill tree to another, you have to meet the prerequisites. If a bass player can shred, its given that he\she can just play a back beat. Mike Manring, Victor Wooten, Les Claypool, Nick Schendzielos, Jaco, Stanley Clarke, Ryan Martinie, etc, etc, etc can plan anything they want. They OWN their instrument. Playing whole notes at 90bpm is a waste of their enormous talents.
4.) No one talks about the "pocket" players because no one cares. I don't know anyone that says Michael Anthony or Nikki Sixx are awesome bass players. People may like them because of their bands or their personalities, but they play forgettable lines. They are co-stars in someone else's movie; I can't dig that. Steve Harris IS Iron Maiden. He doesn't need to shred solos, but his playing is what drives their songs. Geezer Butler is Tony Iommi's equal, not his rhythm section.
5.) If you think less is more, try listen to SunnO))) or some other drone band. That stuff is boring AF.
6.) Some people have a little trouble with this: James Jamerson has been dead for 33 years. The Beatles were a big deal 50 years ago and Paul McCartney hasn't been a relevant musical force since the 80s. That stuff is old man. They played in a style that doesn't really exist anymore. Music has become more complex, as has the playing, to a point where even Rush and Yes are considered a little quaint. As the complexity of the music increases, by necessity, so does the playing of the bassist. If you are happy with old music that there will never be more of, have at it; whatever makes you happy. However, don't be surprised when obsolete playing paradigms aren't enthusiastically supported.
I always play a little over the top, so I'll stick my neck out like Pnchad too.
Sometimes we stick in a slightly gratuitous bass solo only because the song needs something and nobody else wanted to. Did this song need a tapping bass solo??? I don't know, I've often wondered if it would have been better without it. What do you think?
(Warning explicit lyrics)
Sometimes we stick in a slightly gratuitous bass solo only because the song needs something and nobody else wanted to. Did this song need a tapping bass solo??? I don't know, I've often wondered if it would have been better without it. What do you think?
(Warning explicit lyrics)
Some people like busy music, some people don't. It purely a matter of opinion and nobody is right or wrong here.
Non musicians account for most of the audience at any gig or event. Every musician should be able to pull out some flash to impress the masses, and some mature musical subtlety to appease the "true believers" in the crowd. If the nature of the game. Also, you can't please everyone. As bass players we can afford to be simple, and luckily we are usually least concerned with flash, however fast technical playing is some of the easiest stuff to learn so there shouldn't be any reason not to have a trick or two in your bag. If that's what it takes, remember most of us are working musicians. If you're an artist do what you want, if you want a gig, lappeal to your (non musician) audience.
I'm a prog bassist. I love and listen to PROG, and have since the mid 70s. The very first thing I learned to play on bass was the intro to the Overture to the Temples of Syrinx (and eventually we played all of 2112 in our three piece late 70s tribute band). I play 6 string basses, I tap often (!), chord, play harmonics, double drum fills, quarter note grooves, multi-finger picking, 32nd notes, guitar leads and whatever I feel like because... well....
I'm going to say it and it's going to really bother a lot of people, but I am just going to say it.
I am IMPRESSED with pure musical virtuosity regarding technique and it's almost a type of creative athleticism (esp with the drums). I am impressed by pure speed, with near perfect muting, note length and attack. I am impressed by people who can manage frequent time signature changes, tempo changes, and polyrhythms, I am DAMN IMPRESSED by that stuff. I am impressed by Heifetz playing Paganini. I am impressed by a Buddy Rich drum solo. I am floored by a guitar duel between players like Chet Atkins and Jerry Reed, or Al DiMeola and John McLaughlin. I LOVE hearing Zappa with Arthur and Vinnie because they can play too many notes, or a note here and there, or no note or a bazillion in a flurry.
I am stunned by VIRTUOSOs, and I think it's healthy to aspire in some measure to be one.
I LOVE Geddy Lee, and I LOVE his bass solos. I cut my teeth on pure Geddy Lee, learning fifths and fourths and riffs and doubling (Yes! DOUBLING! OOOOHHH the WANKERY!) drum fills like Geddy and that other virtuoso, Neil. Taught me everything I knew.
Geddy gave way to Billy Sheehan. WOW. Incredible player, as another virtuoso, Steve Vai said, "the best rock bassist in the world."
I'm in a band that plays original prog and some covers - Dream Theater "Ytse Jam," Metropolis Part I," "Dance of Eternity," "Erotomania," and I am working up "Instrumedley" from live at Budakon and posted a clip of me here playing the very fast "Change of Seasons" section, which is EXTREMELY fast, doubling (another virtuoso) John Petrucci's playing (minus the octave jumps). Oh, all the way up to the bass solo, doubling (another virtuoso), Mike Portnoy.
But despite that, I don't go around bashing your music and what you do. I don't demean your style (whatever it is). If I liked another genre, I would play that genre, and try to be the best in that genre - whether it meant playing like (another virtuoso) Tony Levin in Liquid Tension Experiment's "Acid Rain" (another cover I posted here on talkbass), or me playing, I don't know, meaningful, heartfelt quarter notes in 4/4. I don't ridicule it. I don't care what you play. What I don't get is the hate (on talkbass!) for bassists who dare play "TOO MANY NOTES!" (You'd think we were mixing 4x10s and single 15 cabs or slapping the bass).
I could become cynical and attribute the overt hate on talkbass for bass styles that play the dreaded "TOO MANY NOTES by those who don't play that many notes to, oh, hmmmmm... I don't know... hmmmm.... ummmmmm.... (well, awkward).
OK - I'm a proud prog bassist who is impressed by physical virtuosity in music, be it Heifetz, Mangini, Buddy, Sheehan, Atkins or Myung. I think it's HEALTHY to aspire to be better, to play (as often is in the case of prog, esp prog metal) to play FASTER and CLEANER for LONGER because the song just might call for it and you don't want to be the schlub in the band going, "Duh, geee fellas, it's too fast for me to play" or "Uhhhh....That riff is too hard can I hold down a root again PLEASE?"
Prog is like that, prog can and does go to crazy virtuosic heights. Don't like prog? Don't listen to it.
But don't go bashing it, either, no one's bashing what you do.
I'm going to say it and it's going to really bother a lot of people, but I am just going to say it.
I am IMPRESSED with pure musical virtuosity regarding technique and it's almost a type of creative athleticism (esp with the drums). I am impressed by pure speed, with near perfect muting, note length and attack. I am impressed by people who can manage frequent time signature changes, tempo changes, and polyrhythms, I am DAMN IMPRESSED by that stuff. I am impressed by Heifetz playing Paganini. I am impressed by a Buddy Rich drum solo. I am floored by a guitar duel between players like Chet Atkins and Jerry Reed, or Al DiMeola and John McLaughlin. I LOVE hearing Zappa with Arthur and Vinnie because they can play too many notes, or a note here and there, or no note or a bazillion in a flurry.
I am stunned by VIRTUOSOs, and I think it's healthy to aspire in some measure to be one.
I LOVE Geddy Lee, and I LOVE his bass solos. I cut my teeth on pure Geddy Lee, learning fifths and fourths and riffs and doubling (Yes! DOUBLING! OOOOHHH the WANKERY!) drum fills like Geddy and that other virtuoso, Neil. Taught me everything I knew.
Geddy gave way to Billy Sheehan. WOW. Incredible player, as another virtuoso, Steve Vai said, "the best rock bassist in the world."
I'm in a band that plays original prog and some covers - Dream Theater "Ytse Jam," Metropolis Part I," "Dance of Eternity," "Erotomania," and I am working up "Instrumedley" from live at Budakon and posted a clip of me here playing the very fast "Change of Seasons" section, which is EXTREMELY fast, doubling (another virtuoso) John Petrucci's playing (minus the octave jumps). Oh, all the way up to the bass solo, doubling (another virtuoso), Mike Portnoy.
But despite that, I don't go around bashing your music and what you do. I don't demean your style (whatever it is). If I liked another genre, I would play that genre, and try to be the best in that genre - whether it meant playing like (another virtuoso) Tony Levin in Liquid Tension Experiment's "Acid Rain" (another cover I posted here on talkbass), or me playing, I don't know, meaningful, heartfelt quarter notes in 4/4. I don't ridicule it. I don't care what you play. What I don't get is the hate (on talkbass!) for bassists who dare play "TOO MANY NOTES!" (You'd think we were mixing 4x10s and single 15 cabs or slapping the bass).
I could become cynical and attribute the overt hate on talkbass for bass styles that play the dreaded "TOO MANY NOTES by those who don't play that many notes to, oh, hmmmmm... I don't know... hmmmm.... ummmmmm.... (well, awkward).
OK - I'm a proud prog bassist who is impressed by physical virtuosity in music, be it Heifetz, Mangini, Buddy, Sheehan, Atkins or Myung. I think it's HEALTHY to aspire to be better, to play (as often is in the case of prog, esp prog metal) to play FASTER and CLEANER for LONGER because the song just might call for it and you don't want to be the schlub in the band going, "Duh, geee fellas, it's too fast for me to play" or "Uhhhh....That riff is too hard can I hold down a root again PLEASE?"
Prog is like that, prog can and does go to crazy virtuosic heights. Don't like prog? Don't listen to it.
But don't go bashing it, either, no one's bashing what you do.
Michael Anthony was a good player, probably better than Wolfgang he just doesn't have a rockstar daddy.
Nikki Sixx just plain suxx
More notes only occasionally = "better" in the music I play bass on. (Mostly jazz and hopped-up pop).
I'll go double-time on the occasions it augments what the other people in the band are doing at the time.
Other than that, Tone, Taste, and Timing rule on a bass, IMO, even in soloing.
Overplaying beyond what fits usually just annoys bandmates, garbles the vibe, ...maybe impresses a few in the crowd, but often at the expense of the overall song.
IMHO.
I'll go double-time on the occasions it augments what the other people in the band are doing at the time.
Other than that, Tone, Taste, and Timing rule on a bass, IMO, even in soloing.
Overplaying beyond what fits usually just annoys bandmates, garbles the vibe, ...maybe impresses a few in the crowd, but often at the expense of the overall song.
IMHO.
It's the rhythm that turns most people on. Only a small percentage actually listens to the composition and hears the separate instruments. We, musicians have to live with it.
Yeah, it's hard to explain why a line as simple as School Boy Crush, or Message of Love is so badass.
I came here to say this. I think there something to be said for making music the common man can enjoy. That being said, it's the artist's craft, so I'd say there's a balance. In my music, there's times where I play faster, and times where I back off and smooth it out.
When I was a kid there was another guy in town about my age that owned a really nice guitar, a loud, tall stack, and an Ibanez Tube Screamer. He'd have parties in his parent's basement and crank up the amp, wince and grit his teeth and wiggle his fingers as fast as he could over the fretboard, the amp squealing and ear splitting and distorted...it was unmusical to say the least, but to other kids, he was a guitar god. What he was in reality was a guy who knew a few basic chords, and not much else...but he had loud stuff and could fool other kids who did not own or play guitars and amps that he was on his way to rock stardom. The faster he would wiggle his fingers on the fretboard, the more he dazzled them. And then one day he tried to put a band together with some other kids from school that had been taking lessons and putting their time in the woodshed. They were not impressed with his frantic finger spasms. The point- speed and fretboard gymnastics have their place, but just because something is fast doesn't necessarily mean it's good. I still see players running their fingers up and down the fretboard as fast as possible thinking they're practicing.
the vast majority of people don't think like that
everyone is entitled to their oppinion
is there any more to this discussion than that?
everyone is entitled to their oppinion
is there any more to this discussion than that?
