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Why do people think that more notes = better?

#81
rtav said:
I'm a prog bassist. I love and listen to PROG, and have since the mid 70s. The very first thing I learned to play on bass was the intro to the Overture to the Temples of Syrinx (and eventually we played all of 2112 in our three piece late 70s tribute band). I play 6 string basses, I tap often (!), chord, play harmonics, double drum fills, quarter note grooves, multi-finger picking, 32nd notes, guitar leads and whatever I feel like because... well....

I'm going to say it and it's going to really bother a lot of people, but I am just going to say it.

I am IMPRESSED with pure musical virtuosity regarding technique and it's almost a type of creative athleticism (esp with the drums). I am impressed by pure speed, with near perfect muting, note length and attack. I am impressed by people who can manage frequent time signature changes, tempo changes, and polyrhythms, I am DAMN IMPRESSED by that stuff. I am impressed by Heifetz playing Paganini. I am impressed by a Buddy Rich drum solo. I am floored by a guitar duel between players like Chet Atkins and Jerry Reed, or Al DiMeola and John McLaughlin. I LOVE hearing Zappa with Arthur and Vinnie because they can play too many notes, or a note here and there, or no note or a bazillion in a flurry.

I am stunned by VIRTUOSOs, and I think it's healthy to aspire in some measure to be one.

I LOVE Geddy Lee, and I LOVE his bass solos. I cut my teeth on pure Geddy Lee, learning fifths and fourths and riffs and doubling (Yes! DOUBLING! OOOOHHH the WANKERY!) drum fills like Geddy and that other virtuoso, Neil. Taught me everything I knew.

Geddy gave way to Billy Sheehan. WOW. Incredible player, as another virtuoso, Steve Vai said, "the best rock bassist in the world."

I'm in a band that plays original prog and some covers - Dream Theater "Ytse Jam," Metropolis Part I," "Dance of Eternity," "Erotomania," and I am working up "Instrumedley" from live at Budakon and posted a clip of me here playing the very fast "Change of Seasons" section, which is EXTREMELY fast, doubling (another virtuoso) John Petrucci's playing (minus the octave jumps). Oh, all the way up to the bass solo, doubling (another virtuoso), Mike Portnoy.

But despite that, I don't go around bashing your music and what you do. I don't demean your style (whatever it is). If I liked another genre, I would play that genre, and try to be the best in that genre - whether it meant playing like (another virtuoso) Tony Levin in Liquid Tension Experiment's "Acid Rain" (another cover I posted here on talkbass), or me playing, I don't know, meaningful, heartfelt quarter notes in 4/4. I don't ridicule it. I don't care what you play. What I don't get is the hate (on talkbass!) for bassists who dare play "TOO MANY NOTES!" (You'd think we were mixing 4x10s and single 15 cabs or slapping the bass).

I could become cynical and attribute the overt hate on talkbass for bass styles that play the dreaded "TOO MANY NOTES by those who don't play that many notes to, oh, hmmmmm... I don't know... hmmmm.... ummmmmm.... (well, awkward).

OK - I'm a proud prog bassist who is impressed by physical virtuosity in music, be it Heifetz, Mangini, Buddy, Sheehan, Atkins or Myung. I think it's HEALTHY to aspire to be better, to play (as often is in the case of prog, esp prog metal) to play FASTER and CLEANER for LONGER because the song just might call for it and you don't want to be the schlub in the band going, "Duh, geee fellas, it's too fast for me to play" or "Uhhhh....That riff is too hard can I hold down a root again PLEASE?"

Prog is like that, prog can and does go to crazy virtuosic heights. Don't like prog? Don't listen to it.

But don't go bashing it, either, no one's bashing what you do.
Click to expand...

Amen!

We all have different biorhythms and internal clocks- what works for one doesn't work for the other...and THANK GOODNESS!

I am also enamored with musical athleticism and bright shiny acts of musical super-stardom and have to work really hard to put a groove where it needs to be, sometimes...

I was just playing along with some Chaka Khan (Stay) and started crying with joy when I got the feel right- it was sonic perfection!

When I take it to the stage, I'm ultimately looking for whatever it is that will get people popping their fingers, thinking about a loved one, or reaching out to the person next to them to share a moment of joy.

And then when it gets really good... I throw in a 32nd note double-thumb riff w sliding false harmonics!![/QUOTE]
 
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#82
Just because you can do a minute in 30 seconds, doesn't mean you often should.


IMG_6693.JPG
 
#84
Jhass said:
My brother-in-law is a great guy. He's smart, funny, and fun to hang with. We get along great. But when it comes to music, he's not knowledgeable. As such, he always equates "fast" and "busy" with better. Its like he's not listening to the music, just gawking at the technique.

Whenever we are together, he ALWAYS asks me if I can play Yes or Rush. He will show me You Tube clips of these guys, and say, "now THAT's bass playing." I have nothing against Geddy or Chris; they are gods. But that style of out-in-front playing just never appealed to me very much. I'm more interested in bass lines that provide a foundation and groove for the song, and/or establish a counter-melody. I find the bass lines of guys like James Jamerson and Paul McCartney much more interesting. That's just my preference.

My question is: why do so many people assume that playing more notes, or playing faster, means you are a better musician? Is it just that they don't understand music, and, in particular, the role of the bass in most songs?
Click to expand...


I'm wondering what would happen if the visual element were removed. Maybe you should refuse to look at the videos next time. Maybe play a song for him, give him the wrong name then the next day show him the video.
 
#85
I took a course on cognitive theory and the arts, and about the only thing I remember was that there was a class on Coltrane, who was used as an example because of his 'sheets of sound' style in which he plays vast amounts of notes across all registers of his instrument while soloing.

The upshot was that this was perceived as artistry to the listener whose cognitive capacity was more capable of perceiving the connections between the vast amount of musical information he was presenting and their concept of the melody and harmony of the song he was soloing over.

music like coltrane's version of jazz or heavy metal shredding had a higher likelihood of being perceived as noise by those who had not developed the cognitive capacity to make those connections. It required a 'feat of cognition' to perceive the musicality of music like that, according to this guy anyhow.

I know that sounds like I'm saying slow or simple music is for dumb people, and that's not what I mean at all. People start with different capacities but things like attitude and repeated exposure come in to play as well

my main point was part of why people think more notes is better has to do with how the brain works and how it reacts to more complex information.

I am a busy player myself, and usually see my role as counterpoint to the lead instrument(s,) but I also play country and reggae where the bass's role is much simpler.
 
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#89
Someone brought this up earlier, I get that the bass is a register and a role as much as an instrument, but I don't get the antipathy for someone who expands what the instrument typically does and takes it outside of that role.

Case in point this video of Victor Wooten playing "I want you back," where there are a bunch of comments griping about how he shouldn't be playing melody on a bass. I can play that bassline, and it's cool and all, but I gaurantee if I was at that concert I would have walked away saying 'holy crap that dude just played the Micheal Jackson vocal part cold on the bass.' And then gone home and tried to figure it out.

 
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#90
rtav said:
I'm a prog bassist. I love and listen to PROG, and have since the mid 70s. The very first thing I learned to play on bass was the intro to the Overture to the Temples of Syrinx (and eventually we played all of 2112 in our three piece late 70s tribute band). I play 6 string basses, I tap often (!), chord, play harmonics, double drum fills, quarter note grooves, multi-finger picking, 32nd notes, guitar leads and whatever I feel like because... well....

I'm going to say it and it's going to really bother a lot of people, but I am just going to say it.

I am IMPRESSED with pure musical virtuosity regarding technique and it's almost a type of creative athleticism (esp with the drums). I am impressed by pure speed, with near perfect muting, note length and attack. I am impressed by people who can manage frequent time signature changes, tempo changes, and polyrhythms, I am DAMN IMPRESSED by that stuff. I am impressed by Heifetz playing Paganini. I am impressed by a Buddy Rich drum solo. I am floored by a guitar duel between players like Chet Atkins and Jerry Reed, or Al DiMeola and John McLaughlin. I LOVE hearing Zappa with Arthur and Vinnie because they can play too many notes, or a note here and there, or no note or a bazillion in a flurry.

I am stunned by VIRTUOSOs, and I think it's healthy to aspire in some measure to be one.

I LOVE Geddy Lee, and I LOVE his bass solos. I cut my teeth on pure Geddy Lee, learning fifths and fourths and riffs and doubling (Yes! DOUBLING! OOOOHHH the WANKERY!) drum fills like Geddy and that other virtuoso, Neil. Taught me everything I knew.

Geddy gave way to Billy Sheehan. WOW. Incredible player, as another virtuoso, Steve Vai said, "the best rock bassist in the world."

I'm in a band that plays original prog and some covers - Dream Theater "Ytse Jam," Metropolis Part I," "Dance of Eternity," "Erotomania," and I am working up "Instrumedley" from live at Budakon and posted a clip of me here playing the very fast "Change of Seasons" section, which is EXTREMELY fast, doubling (another virtuoso) John Petrucci's playing (minus the octave jumps). Oh, all the way up to the bass solo, doubling (another virtuoso), Mike Portnoy.

But despite that, I don't go around bashing your music and what you do. I don't demean your style (whatever it is). If I liked another genre, I would play that genre, and try to be the best in that genre - whether it meant playing like (another virtuoso) Tony Levin in Liquid Tension Experiment's "Acid Rain" (another cover I posted here on talkbass), or me playing, I don't know, meaningful, heartfelt quarter notes in 4/4. I don't ridicule it. I don't care what you play. What I don't get is the hate (on talkbass!) for bassists who dare play "TOO MANY NOTES!" (You'd think we were mixing 4x10s and single 15 cabs or slapping the bass).

I could become cynical and attribute the overt hate on talkbass for bass styles that play the dreaded "TOO MANY NOTES by those who don't play that many notes to, oh, hmmmmm... I don't know... hmmmm.... ummmmmm.... (well, awkward).

OK - I'm a proud prog bassist who is impressed by physical virtuosity in music, be it Heifetz, Mangini, Buddy, Sheehan, Atkins or Myung. I think it's HEALTHY to aspire to be better, to play (as often is in the case of prog, esp prog metal) to play FASTER and CLEANER for LONGER because the song just might call for it and you don't want to be the schlub in the band going, "Duh, geee fellas, it's too fast for me to play" or "Uhhhh....That riff is too hard can I hold down a root again PLEASE?"

Prog is like that, prog can and does go to crazy virtuosic heights. Don't like prog? Don't listen to it.

But don't go bashing it, either, no one's bashing what you do.
Click to expand...

i'm not a prog bassist, but i love fast playing when done well. to be fair, i love any playing when done well in a style of music i enjoy. i used to play in a band where the drummer hammered off blast beats like a madman, always perfectly timed, and my future husband (who i had just met) was just about the fastest, cleanest guitar player i had worked with. and at the time, i was happy to have guys to play with who were able to play at lightspeed and keep that rhythm on time every time. and i liked to play leads when it suited me and the band. it was great - really :)

that doesn't mean i didn't put my all into the pop band i was playing with at the time or the sort of new wave of british heavy metal originals band i played in. but i got the biggest kick out of playing with guys who could kick it into overdrive :)
 
#92
Depends on the band. I think we're quibbling about the difference between a band full of virtuosos and and a band full of over-players.

It's like Live theater, usually, everyone can't be the star at the same time.


...or like my wife used to say in the days when she was still running a sound console...

..."Everyone can't do their funky thing at once"...
 
#97
Humbled said:
Depends on the band. I think we're quibbling about the difference between a band full of virtuosos and and a band full of over-players.

It's like Live theater, usually, everyone can't be the star at the same time.


...or like my wife used to say in the days when she was still running a sound console...

..."Everyone can't do their funky thing at once"...
Click to expand...

THIS! Especially true in a funk/dance context- that groove comes from 4-5 players all playing THEIR part of the 16th note measure and all of the elements falling into the cut together. The antithesis is exampled when Phish/Moe or similar groups will drop "dead on the heavy funk" for ONE measure before everyone gets excited and proceeds to negate the groove potential of their fellow players.

Do I need to use lovemaking metaphors? Or can that aspect of good grooving simply be IMPLIED out of deference to good taste?
 
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