Why do people think that more notes = better?

[btmpancake]

I was told one of the reasons people do originals was because they could add as much anything as they want with nobody telling them otherwise, I guess you could get away with ''overplaying'' if you never heard it any other way, I would think real musicians can tell regardless, I know I can and I'm a hacker.

 

[Korladis]

I was told one of the reasons people do originals was because they could add as much anything as they want with nobody telling them otherwise, I guess you could get away with ''overplaying'' if you never heard it any other way, I would think real musicians can tell regardless, I know I can and I'm a hacker.

I play mostly originals. We compose them as a band to make good songs. They're not for individual showing off.

 

[btmpancake]

I play mostly originals. We compose them as a band to make good songs. They're not for individual showing off.

Who's to say you played too many notes in a original pc of music if you wrote it that way and nobody never heard it before but if it becomes so popular- somebody, somewhere will modify it more or less, of course its all opinionated. All great/ any song have an origin tho.

 

[SteveCS]

I remember years ago, back in about 88, I found myself in a pub listening to a jazz trio. The friend I was with let it be known that I played bass and I got invited to sit in for a tune (on upright). Memory fails as to what tune, but the piano player called the changes (I, IV, etc) for me. To be honest, back then I had no real clue about walking over changes, but I knew my scales and how to hold a swing/shuffle down. At least I thought so! At the end the old boy said nice job timing and feel but just too busy. For a minute I wasn't sure what he meant as I'd not blown all over it and had kept the pulse. After that I listened more closely, and his simplicity really stuck with me. Sure he could take a solo (and he was good) but most of the time he held the form whilst creating space for the soloists. In other words he did his job. When it came to his turn to blow, the contrast made the solo all the more striking. So my lesson back in 88 was that there is nothing wrong with virtuosity but it has to serve the music and is not, IMHO, an end in itself.

 

[lfmn16]

Maybe because it takes more skill to play Squire, Geddy and Victor than Dusty Hill?

 

[Blah114]

My brother-in-law is a great guy. He's smart, funny, and fun to hang with. We get along great. But when it comes to music, he's not knowledgeable. As such, he always equates "fast" and "busy" with better. Its like he's not listening to the music, just gawking at the technique.

Whenever we are together, he ALWAYS asks me if I can play Yes or Rush. He will show me You Tube clips of these guys, and say, "now THAT's bass playing." I have nothing against Geddy or Chris; they are gods. But that style of out-in-front playing just never appealed to me very much. I'm more interested in bass lines that provide a foundation and groove for the song, and/or establish a counter-melody. I find the bass lines of guys like James Jamerson and Paul McCartney much more interesting. That's just my preference.

My question is: why do so many people assume that playing more notes, or playing faster, means you are a better musician? Is it just that they don't understand music, and, in particular, the role of the bass in most songs?

if it sounds good, it is good.

 

[bearhart74]

humans can't help themselves from thinking and acting that more is always better.

 

[Humbled]

yea, of course.

Oh yeah.

Just as fun as listening to Tuck Andress or Chet Atkins or Leo Kottke.


...Actually it sounds like a half-dozen electric basses being simultaneously slid down a very long flight of stairs to me.

Everything that takes skill doesn't necessarily add up to music.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

A good example of a well rounded bassist is Janek Gwizdala. He plays with speed, fair amount of notes, feel and does well in a band.

But he is an hired gun ... what about a band like Dream Theater. I can't imagine John Myung play reggae or blues or whatever, so what ? Being a jack of all trade but master of none isn't better.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

Why do people think that more notes = better?

...because they are too young/inexperienced to know any better.

Imagine if Geddy Lee started to slow down, remove his overdrive and play soft because he is getting old ... it wouldn't be Rush anymore. "Maturing" or the "less is more" approach can get too far and you end up loosing what made you unique.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

Yngwie Malmsteen left Sweden for US, since no one cared for his fretboard antics around here. They basically still don't. I think actually that non-musicians, the ordinary people that listens to music in a casual way, doesn't want to listen to virtuosity for that long, and most people I know just gets "nervous" and think it's boring to listen to.

However, when it comes to musicians, especially when starting out, have a urge, and hunger, and an alpha male strutting feathers style, that just wants to show off. Just like a circus act. Now, this is not all musicians. These are mostly in the rock world, and hard rock world as far as I can see. In jazz, you had a number of fusion artists that can play swift, and with intensity, but I'll say it's not common and dime a dozen. Especially when young jazz musicians starting out today. On top of this I can sense that this shredding thing is solely within the guitar community and to a lesser degree bass community. Never ever heard of a singer that sings words as fast as a cattle auctioneer, being revered. I don't mind that circus acts exists within music. It's a thing for some people. Mostly kids, and families. I don't scold people who likes show-off shredding bass players or guitarists.

Now, with bass, there's a couple of bassshredders that has come through, while I not reckon neither Chris Squire, Geddy Lee, as such, I think it's more about people like Billy Sheehan, Stanley Clarke, Wooten, and some more. But by and large those over the top virtuosic players has come through in spite of them playing fast. I do agree with you somewhat that the listening experience and understanding of music is still in their start, and not "acquired taste" or cultivated enough yet. I do listen to all kinds of musicians, and whenever faced with that guy you described above, I tell them "I listen to musicians in spite of they're playing fast, or in spite of they're playing very slow". It's never been any yardstick for me judging any music and musician. I recall in my youth days, sure thing I liked Al di Meola, Stanley Clarke, McLaughlin too, but I liked other things too, a lot of "slow" blues/rock music, and even some new age windham hill thing. Michael Manring is very skilled, but I think his virtuosity is beyond "fast". He has other aspects in his music and playing.

- - - - -

In classical music, there's the same perception with the uninformed audience. However, with classical music, it requires a lot prerequisites, and former information and conditioning before you can start to appreciate all aspects of it. That's why I like some of the classical musicians, and audience, because inside that audience, you can never ever get away with just being swift and fast and very virtuosic on any instrument. Youll have to admit that even if the play fast, the music can still be boring. Or not. But not beacuse of the speed. It's like "you just should be able to play that, and has always been like that, nothing to get worked up over". You can't impress people with show off speed only. All other aspects of a performer is judged just as equal, and you're definitely not a better musician just because you can play many notes. I wish that some of this validation and perception could be spilled over to the other genres of music.

Yngwie was a product of the 80's hair metal and power metal just like Eddy Van Halen ... something that died with Crunge. Now everything more than what the average Joe can play or sing along is toss like it is garbage or showing off.

Virtuosity was always something in Jazz and Classical music and still present in Metal but the average listener turned their back on it like I said when Crunge came out and it is sad ... because the quality of the music dropped a lot since.

I know classical music never been big in the USA, it is more of a European thing and I know at one point they went too far and alienated most people because it was too far, too complex too everything. It just shows that music when from Art to a Mainstream good that you buy and toss in the trash can once it is done, just like any fashion or McDonalds.

Our instrument is also very ... "average joe"-ish, everyone can buy, make some noise and join a band and do crappy music, or music bare bone because you can't do better while in classical and jazz music, the instruments require dedication to get something ... it is all dumbing down.

 

[el murdoque]

In my experience, it is a natural progress.
When a player gets better, he becomes capable of playing more stuff. And feels the need to show off what all the bedroom practice came down to.
Normal playing becomes fast, then super fast, then comes tapping, slapping and whatnot. And with time, maturity sets in and the next thing you know is you're playing your stuff like Clapton.
It is, somehow, harder to leave some space and then play the note that is just right than playing some 8 finger tapping 32s into the same space.
That takes time, talent and practice.

 

[MVE]

I'm a prog bassist. I love and listen to PROG, and have since the mid 70s. The very first thing I learned to play on bass was the intro to the Overture to the Temples of Syrinx (and eventually we played all of 2112 in our three piece late 70s tribute band). I play 6 string basses, I tap often (!), chord, play harmonics, double drum fills, quarter note grooves, multi-finger picking, 32nd notes, guitar leads and whatever I feel like because... well....

I'm going to say it and it's going to really bother a lot of people, but I am just going to say it.

I am IMPRESSED with pure musical virtuosity regarding technique and it's almost a type of creative athleticism (esp with the drums). I am impressed by pure speed, with near perfect muting, note length and attack. I am impressed by people who can manage frequent time signature changes, tempo changes, and polyrhythms, I am DAMN IMPRESSED by that stuff. I am impressed by Heifetz playing Paganini. I am impressed by a Buddy Rich drum solo. I am floored by a guitar duel between players like Chet Atkins and Jerry Reed, or Al DiMeola and John McLaughlin. I LOVE hearing Zappa with Arthur and Vinnie because they can play too many notes, or a note here and there, or no note or a bazillion in a flurry.

I am stunned by VIRTUOSOs, and I think it's healthy to aspire in some measure to be one.

I LOVE Geddy Lee, and I LOVE his bass solos. I cut my teeth on pure Geddy Lee, learning fifths and fourths and riffs and doubling (Yes! DOUBLING! OOOOHHH the WANKERY!) drum fills like Geddy and that other virtuoso, Neil. Taught me everything I knew.

Geddy gave way to Billy Sheehan. WOW. Incredible player, as another virtuoso, Steve Vai said, "the best rock bassist in the world."

I'm in a band that plays original prog and some covers - Dream Theater "Ytse Jam," Metropolis Part I," "Dance of Eternity," "Erotomania," and I am working up "Instrumedley" from live at Budakon and posted a clip of me here playing the very fast "Change of Seasons" section, which is EXTREMELY fast, doubling (another virtuoso) John Petrucci's playing (minus the octave jumps). Oh, all the way up to the bass solo, doubling (another virtuoso), Mike Portnoy.

But despite that, I don't go around bashing your music and what you do. I don't demean your style (whatever it is). If I liked another genre, I would play that genre, and try to be the best in that genre - whether it meant playing like (another virtuoso) Tony Levin in Liquid Tension Experiment's "Acid Rain" (another cover I posted here on talkbass), or me playing, I don't know, meaningful, heartfelt quarter notes in 4/4. I don't ridicule it. I don't care what you play. What I don't get is the hate (on talkbass!) for bassists who dare play "TOO MANY NOTES!" (You'd think we were mixing 4x10s and single 15 cabs or slapping the bass).

I could become cynical and attribute the overt hate on talkbass for bass styles that play the dreaded "TOO MANY NOTES by those who don't play that many notes to, oh, hmmmmm... I don't know... hmmmm.... ummmmmm.... (well, awkward).

OK - I'm a proud prog bassist who is impressed by physical virtuosity in music, be it Heifetz, Mangini, Buddy, Sheehan, Atkins or Myung. I think it's HEALTHY to aspire to be better, to play (as often is in the case of prog, esp prog metal) to play FASTER and CLEANER for LONGER because the song just might call for it and you don't want to be the schlub in the band going, "Duh, geee fellas, it's too fast for me to play" or "Uhhhh....That riff is too hard can I hold down a root again PLEASE?"

Prog is like that, prog can and does go to crazy virtuosic heights. Don't like prog? Don't listen to it.

But don't go bashing it, either, no one's bashing what you do.

SAY IT, Brother!!!

 

[InnerBass]

If you're getting paid by the note, get in as many as you can : )

 

[mikeyjm2]

Whenever we are together, he ALWAYS asks me if I can play Yes or Rush. He will show me You Tube clips of these guys, and say, "now THAT's bass playing."

Show him some Jamerson and McCartney clips and tell him "THAT is also bass playing". Musicianship isn't one-size-fits-all.

 

[karl_em_all]

Too many or too few notes? From a player perspective you can fill a measure with a blazing run that takes you up and down the neck but is it enhancing the song? Trimming it down to make the notes mean more can give it more weight, make it more impactful on the song and on the listener. Sometimes chugging on the root is what feels right and provides thrust to a song. Other times sticking to the root can be detrimental. Sometimes less is not enough.

 

[togril]

Maybe he just likes busy music. People who listen to music are generally not musicians. And it doesnt matter, because as the audience they are subjectively right. Always. A band spends years crafting an epic, then records something else in 20 minutes, whilst writing the lyrics at the same time just as a filler...becomes a classic.
Some people like Trojan Dub Bass, some people like Mark King going mental.
I blame violins.
Normally, for everything.

 

[RickyWoo]

Tell your brother-in-law to listen to Rumble by Link Wray. That should set him straight.

 

[Susqmike]

To each their own. Billy Sheehan and Curt Smith are both great players..just very different.

 

[karl_em_all]

Yngwie was a product of the 80's hair metal and power metal just like Eddy Van Halen ... something that died with Crunge. Now everything more than what the average Joe can play or sing along is toss like it is garbage or showing off.

Grunge always seems to have a sense of musical impairment associated with it. As if there were no good musicians involved in it.

Listening to Van Halen - 1984 doesn't impress me with its super bare bone, dead simple, rhythm section.
Listening to Soundgarden - Badmotorfinger shows more musicality, more intensity, and more depth. Definitely not what I would call average Joe playing.